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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    No one should deny the sheer magnitude of the problem the WSR has, and sorry to say this but its self inflicted, and should have with proper governance been seen years ago that this was going to happen, Permanent way really is a misnomer, its never permanent, it needs replacement over time, rails wear, ballast needs replacing, drainage need constant attention, and any railway that ignores these facts is one day going to find it has no usable railway to run on. it needs to ensure it has a program of structured renewal and more important that it sets aside the funds to enable itself to carry out that work .
    The WSR now needs to cut its cloth to what is possible for it to survive this year, and the next, that may mean more diesel haulage, or DMU turns and less steam ,or shorter steam turns, possibly only running a shuttle type operation to cut costs, And it needs to accept some harsh realities, such as possibly a new share scheme to raise funds, clearly the WSRA / PLC problem still has not fully gone away, and possibly wont until both organisations can find a way to support each other this will only come with new people and old attitudes being tossed in the dustbin, . There is no right for any heritage railway to survive, and some may even close if costs outstrip earnings, this past year, with tightening household budgets means people are not spending what they were .
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just for clarity in the above, when you refer to the "WSR", are you meaning the current legal entity of the West Somerset Railway (a heritage railway in the SW of England), or more generally to the historic entity of the West Somerset Railway (a railway line built over a hundred years ago that runs from taunton to Minehead). It's not explicitly clear, and potentially changes the meaning of what you write.

    More generally, I'm still sceptical about the possibility of a heritage line and a part of the national network operated by a ToC co-existing to the scale implied. As an example, infrastructure is a hot topic, but the infrastructure needed for the two entities is somewhat different. For example, take cant: ideally, the WSR as a heritage line would have the curves canted for 25mph working; as a part of the national network you would want them canted for probably 45mph. Or signalling: you can operate modern units with heritage signalling, provided someone is prepared to man all those signal boxes 365 days per year - can't see Network Rail doing that. You might find volunteers (unlikely) but conceivably would then have penalty payments when the line was shut because a volunteer wasn't available late on Christmas Eve to man what was a contractual obligation. I can see a can of worms there. By contrast, you can't cheaply have your heritage locos adapted for what the signalling solution would be if it were a pure part of the national network. So when you say the WSR needs major infrastructure investment, that's true, but the decisions made are going to be distinctly sub-optimal for either the heritage operation; or the commuter one.

    Tom
     
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  3. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Re what I mean by WSR. I’m trying to be diplomatic and to not pick on individuals or positions so in paragraph 1 & 3 it’s about the WSR Leaderships relationship building skills, thats past and present and I’m not being PLC, WSRA or WSSRT specific as its involved many who have not considered the concept of a Commuter use of any kind and have just tried to dismiss it and slagged it off, hoping it will go away (it hasn't).

    The rest really refers to a railway line from Minehead to Taunton, whoever in the future may be running it (or not). I hope that covers it, I don’t want to directly name, names but my point is to change the culture to consideration and problem solving not just saying ‘no’ to anybody else’s ideas (for which there is a long track record).

    You are right about track cant and signalling and other issues as well. But it’s where the plan ends up after a positive debate and seeing the issues trough not where it started. For example as put forward by MRLG its: TOC to own and run the trains, 365 days at 50 mph and with a service that due to line capacity means the Heritage trains can’t run much of the time. As you say that comes at a cost both financial and social, most likely including not running Heritage Trains which equals the loss of a major heritage attraction and the secondary spend as highlighted by #Aldfort a couple of posts ago, not to say removing the ability for 1,000 volunteers to have a pastime to enjoy and improve their mental well being.

    But could it end up as: Run with Heritage DMU’s (Pacers?)' and then later a more environmentally friendly option over less days with the WSR owning/running the DMU’s on behalf of the TOC at 25 mph (because the cost implications of increasing that which mostly likely only saves 10-15 mins on the trip maybe too large). The service would of course have to be subsidised by somebody with no cost risk to the WSR. It’s all about who will fund it (Signalmen and all!) and what benefit does it bring the WSR and the Community, those answers aren’t know currently. The 1974 Re-born WSR was in effect this idea but it turned into the Heritage WSR of today so would history repeat or have (will) times change, meaning its time has yet to come?

    It may be a non-starter and the issues are insurmountable but it should be considered, it’s about opening opportunities up not closing them down and the world of tomorrow is likely to encourage integrated transport solutions in a much more dynamic way than we can see today. As others have said there are more immediate issues but again that’s not a reason to ignore the opportunity, say no and start another resource sapping war with a Community who may potentially want it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  4. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Others will no doubt have the relevant posts at their finger tips, but last year it was stated on here that trains could not run easily off the WSR to Taunton and vice versa. Actually, this year's GWR shuttle service to BL have shown this not to be an issue, amd BL has coped very well with a WSR train in the platform with a GWR 150 set coming into and out of the same platform; so in effect the same as happens at Cardiff Central all the time.

    Bi directional platform and permissive working for a platform at BL is quite something when accepting railtours and the GWR shuttles this summer.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  5. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It's not the BL end that's the problem, it's at Taunton. The only signalled access to and from the Minehead branch is via the down slow, so that means crossing all the way across to the up side and then running wrong line for quite a way when accessing the branch. Absolutely barmy, but that's how it was resignalled a few years ago.
     
  6. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention the up and down mains being slewed slightly to ease the curve. The issue with the current layout is pathing because of the need to cross both up and down main lines. This limits the number of shuttles that can run.
     
  7. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused by this assertion. What is likely to change - the WSR's current business model, or the possibility of combining the WSR plc's business model with a commuter service? And on what basis do you think this is going to change?
     
  8. Roland Bushell

    Roland Bushell New Member

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    Apologies if ambiguity has interfered with the point being made earlier. WSR has to reduce costs, increase revenues or increase other funding streams if it is to continue to operate its current business model. They - the policy actions needed - are not mutually exclusive, but represent a significant challenge if only because the values concerned are very large indeed. Ample evidence of this can be found on previous posts and in the performance updates that have come from WSR`s newish chairman. Conclusion? Significant changes are needed, and I believe the current Chairman has little choice but to confirm this later in the year. Will this mean the emergence of a model that includes a commuter option? Not a chance! But the real point I have been trying to make is that further developing the shuttle model may well be helpful in determining whether or not further links with the national network can be effective. For WSR, and possibly for West Somerset`s residents if service levels and heritage pricing levels can be addressed. Pathing problems in Taunton are a significant barrier though, and the GWR timetable changes planned for December 15th will limit options here still further. But all of this is just speculation. I guess we all will have to wait until the AGM...
     
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  9. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    I distributed a survey across local community groups and the results have suggested a lot of people would respond positively to a new train link with Taunton from West Somerset. But as one of the moderators pointed out very convincingly, liking the idea of a restored link and actually using it are two very different things.

    I don't know what the demographics of local community groups around Minehead are, but here in Worcestershire they tend to be composed principally of people who possess Bus Passes. If the Minehead groups are similar, then they'd be even less likely than the general population to actually use a train service for which they had to pay.
     
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  10. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    The demographics are towards the elderly, indeed here in Porlock ( six miles from Minehead ) we have
    one of the oldest, if indeed not the the eldest, in England and Wales.

    The current state of the WSR infrastructure is not good ie permanent way, some bridges and possibly
    an embankment. ( reports from both the civil engineer and external consultants appear to oscillate
    wrt detail but consistently confirm the 'Railway' is tired. )

    Whether a commuter service is viable ( there are many challenges e.g. parallel cheaper bus service,
    free to many, the bus takes one to the middle of Taunton, with the current 25 mph restriction
    MD- BL with DMU an hour, Taunton 80 mins. etc. ) is quite frankly irrelevant. The only
    option to keep the Railway open ( unless there is a benefactor, whether public or private,
    with millions of pounds to spend, for sure it would not be an investment ) is to concentrate
    on the Heritage operation and the begging bowl.

    Mr Norman I note the ever increasing paragraphs, well written, but the more you
    write the more I question your knowledge. Mr Bushell as a West Somerset resident.
    I appreciate your time and efforts. Transport is undoubtedly a key challenge for
    the economic well being of the area.

    Meanwhile we must hope some resolute plans will be announced at the AGM. Whilst
    reducing overheads, not running non productive services and reducing waste is key
    to any business there must be ideas for new revenue ( which will, in the apparent
    absence of funds inevitably be structured around the existing 'Heritage' model. )

    A vigorous and friendly call to arms to the volunteers might help: there appears
    to be a growing dictatorship allied to 'mushroom management'. Benevolent
    dictatorship I quite like when times are tough, dictatorship no.

    Michael Rowe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  11. ikcdab

    ikcdab Member Friend

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    Not really. None of the current board have been elected by shareholders yet, they are all coopted. That election will come at the forthcoming AGM. the chairman is elected by the directors, not the shareholders.
    It is an interesting situation in that the company articles demand a minimum of 3 directors who must be actual people, not organisations. They currently have 3 such directors, but this allows no margin for future resignations. Such a small board allows a lot of direct control but misses out on wider input and ideas.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  12. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    The provision of a passenger-standard signalled route to and from the WSR in place of what had been signalled as a siding at the time of the MAS installation in 1986 had to be provided with the very minimum alterations to the relay interlocking at Exeter. This constraint produced the present arrangements at Norton Fitzwarren which are fine for an occasional rail tour or a weekend shuttle through (in big railway terms) the middle of the day but are quite unsuited to a commuter operation, particularly with the enhanced GWR main line service from 15 December which will provide a further small upward step in services at Taunton to add to all those upward steps since the dark days of the 1970’s when the centre island platform was taken out of use and two platforms and the Bristol Bay coped with the service.

    Taunton is (fortunately) a rather busier place these days.

    Robin
     
  13. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Just so I can get this straight: am I right in thinking that the correct order of events is the following:

    * Board invites JJP to become a director and elects him chairman
    * JJP asks for the resignations of all current directors, including the General Manager, and replaces them with his own appointees
    * At the next AGM this entirely-new board will therefore have to stand for election, along of course with any other shareholders who want to stand
    * Said AGM appears to be being delayed considerably, somewhat pushing the definition of the word "annual"

    Have I got anything wrong in the above?
     
  14. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    As a point of information:

    By the WSR plc Articles, and assuming that the provisional date for the AGM of 14 December is kept to, only Persons recommended by the Directors for appointment as Directors can now stand for election.

    Robin
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
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  15. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification - I assume that's purely because the anticipated AGM is only a few weeks away?
     
  16. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Which is even more bizarre as it effectively gives the current board (unelected) a veto over any future board members!
    Totally undemocratic, how has this been allowed to happen???

    Keith
     
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  17. FrankC

    FrankC Member

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    Yes. Ian Colby, Rodney Greenway, Bill Knell and I were not asked to resign but chose to do so (at different times over the "year").
    Frank Courtney
     
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  18. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification Frank - I realised I might be compressing things a little.
     
  19. mvpeters

    mvpeters Member

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    Robin, if this is with reference to Article 117, my reading of it is different.
    I believe a candidate for Director could have been Nominated by a qualified Shareholder as long as that nomination was made prior to about October 13th, 60 days before the 'provisional' AGM date.

    upload_2019-10-27_19-44-41.png

    Edited to add: I missed the 'now' in your comment. You are correct, it is 'now' too late to nominate a candidate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  20. nine elms fan

    nine elms fan Part of the furniture

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    In other words, a stitch up. :rolleyes:
     

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