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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    Quite right that there is no one size fits all solution. I would argue that the SVR has some element of control embedded within it, but I think it is or has been a key dysfunction for the WSR. There seems to have been no shortage of people who felt the direction of both the WSRA and the Plc were in their own ways wrong, but no mechanism to do anything about it, and there still isn't. I think that what is important is that stakeholders (especially those that give their labour for free) receive in exchange for their support good consultation with the board. An effective support organisation can provide this dialogue AND, as in all the cases you indicate above, exercise a perceptible influence over the operation of the business. This is not the situation at the WSR and that is a key dysfunction. We are I think saying similar things.

    I don't think any railway pays its directors (except for those that have paid management siting on the board). The issue is perhaps the availability of high calibre people and the willingness of incumbents to make way for new faces (the latter not now an issue at the WSR Plc of course).
     
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  2. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Tarring all heritage railways with the same brush is rather unreasonable,

    Take poorly qualified staff many were able to call upon skills used on the big railway / industry which have been passed down and in some casesformal apprenticeships established. As skilll sets have been established more througher refubs are now being undertaken, to virtually new specs.

    Track renewals are increasingly being undertaken with new materials.

    many railways are following care for their infrastructure and will survive
     
  3. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    The Festiniog (only one F because the London civil service of the time didn't know how to spell Welsh names ;)) is a really good example, and I totally agree they have a long term strategy that works for them. They have though all of the same elements of the business model as everyone else except for one. They never relied on the residual life left in the equipment, because there wasn't any really by the time they took over. Couple this to the fact that the costs of building locomotives, rolling stock and infrastructure are massively lower on 2ft gauge and you're on to a bit of a winner before you start factoring in consistently good or very good management and governance over the last 50+ years. The business model isn't significantly different. The cost structure is, and they have been successful in winning a significant share of the local market for tourist £s for all sorts of reasons. They (and some others) execute the business model well.

    You can build a new locomotive for not much more than the cost of overhauling a large standard gauge engine. A new carriage is about the same cost as overhauling a mk1. The running costs of both are lower than their std gauge counterpart too. Massively so. The efficiency in terms of bums on seats shifted per ton of equipment is better on narrow gauge. Everything is cheaper, and yet they can charge the same per passenger mile (perhaps more - I havent looked in a while) as the standard gauge. The FR carry about the same number of passengers as say the SVR, but at lower cost, so they can generate surpluses to pay for major renewals AND they can still tap into the donations and legacies. On top of all that, they have always valued volunteers and worked hard to make them feel valued. As you say, plenty to learn from. Gauge conversion anyone?

    Oh one other thought on cost structure .... how much fixed signalling do you see on the FR? Answer not much, and what is there isnt trying to be a recreation of the approach to Snow Hill. It is purely functional and provides great flexibility with minimal staffing. The R&ER is an even better example of simplification in this respect. I am not saying there isnt a place for the opposite approach, just that as with everything else it isnt only the cost of initial installation that needs thinking through, and often nothing else does seem to factor. To what extent does the fantastic signalling on the standard gauge lines contribute to the attraction of more ordinary visitors? I love it, but it is rare I feel that it is used to the full as part of the attraction. (Not a comment especially about the WSR BTW whose signalmen are very welcoming).
     
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  4. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    The problem with trying to make a general point about a diverse industry is that it is possible to find exceptions everywhere. I wasn't tarring anyone. I am trying to draw attention to the fact that "ageing" problems are to be found all over the industry and very very few are immune.

    The admirable apprenticeships are doing no more than preserving certain key skills. They were not intended to replace volunteering, and the fact remains that most volunteers are not highly skilled in the engineering skills that are required to overhaul rolling stock or locos. I am not for one second denigrating anyones contribution, but out of 20 shed volunteers perhaps 2 would be what might be considered a "fitter". Seldom is it the case that there is a scheme for creating this kind of skill set in a volunteer. In most cases (generalising again) railways rely on people arriving with some skills already acquired elsewhere. The supply of suitably skilled people from industry has undoubtedly dwindled over the time I have been a volunteer (30+ years), and even back then the skilled ones were prized because they were rare. I dont think skill sets have driven better overhauls, necessity has, as the equipment has gone from nearly worn out to completely worn out (residual life used up), but I agree that the development over time of skills has kept pace with the depth of renewal work required, though not the volume now becoming necessary I think.

    The rate of renewals is generally lower than is required to maintain the existing service levels. Is that true for every railway? No. Is it true behind closed doors for some really significant ones? Yes absolutely.

    Track renewals have to be undertaken with new materials. Second hand is generally not available. It is beyond the means (or current fundraising capability) of many to contemplate total renewal within the lifetime of their assets though.

    Many railways will survive. Quite a few will not though without radical and very specific (to them and their situation) strategic actions.

    I'm not running down what has been achieved. I am not suggesting it is all going to go up in the proverbial puff of smoke tomorrow, but it is more precarious than is generally accepted, and we have to address the problems more creatively and more collaboratively than we have to date.
     
  5. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    A couple of things come to mind reading the above.
    Any supporter of the WSR is free to become a shareholder, this gives you a voice at the AGM. You can elect the directors you feel are best able to run the railway for you.
    Any supporter can also join the WSRA, this gives you a voice at the AGM and you can elect the trustees that you think are best able to support the WSR.
    However, neither organisation is a plebiscite. There will never be regular referenda on what to do next. Note this is not he same as stakeholder involvement. The WSR has gone out of it's way this year to engage with stakeholders. The WSR plc board works closely with the WSRA to try and ensure joined up thinking. We are all aware of the potential difficulties of the structure and a lot of work goes into ensuring that the potential divergence is avoided.
    The bottom line is in the 21st century we need more money than the fare box can provide. We also need a lot more people to step forward and actively offer to help.
     
  6. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Any supporter with sufficient disposable funds of course. You have to have £100 to "invest" to become a shareholder, which does make me wonder what the net benefit to the railway is over, say, thirty or forty years. I know Tom has also raised this as an issue previously.

    It might also be worth clarifying that you are talking about two separate AGMs there!
     
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  7. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    100% agree
     
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  8. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no to the point in bold. The WSRA is a major shareholder in the WSR plc. To that extent as a WSRA member you can influence how those shares are voted at the WSR plc AGM.
    ... and to your other point, you can be a WSRA member for about a tenner (although we'd like you to give more if you can :)).
     
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  9. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    Is anybody able to state for certain the final few days of the Class 37’s visit to the WSR?

    The G and W’s diesel blog states that it’s final day of service will be Sunday 6th July (the 6th of July is Saturday) and the loco returns to Toddington on Tuesday 8th July (the 8th of July is Monday).

    I’d appreciate clarification as I want to make a couple of final trips behind this popular visitor before she departs.
     
  10. Ian Monkton

    Ian Monkton Member

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    Friday 5th July - Growler Group Charter
    Saturday 6th July - working DMU diagram including extra run to WN from MD at 1325.
     
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  11. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    Thanks Ian.
     
  12. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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    Copied From the ever fantastic WSR.org.

    “Visiting Class 37 'Growler' no D6948, owned by the 'Growler Group' will soon have its last runs on the Minehead Branch.

    On Saturday 6 July 2019, the popular diesel locomotive will head the 11am from Bishops Lydeard to Minehead, then the 1.25pm Minehead to Williton and the 2.22pm Williton to Minehead, with its finale being the 3.25pm from Minehead back to Bishops Lydeard. These trains on 6 July 2019 are public service trains for turn-up-on-the-day passengers along with those with valid season tickets or valid tickets booked in advance.

    The day before - Friday 5 July 2019 - is the Growler Group 'members day'. The Group have arranged a special treat with a departure at 9.40am from Bishops Lydeard to the less used Norton Fitzwarren end of the line. The train will then depart Bishops Lydeard at 11am to Minehead. There is an afternoon 'fill in' return trip from Minehead to Williton before the train leaves Minehead at 3.25pm for the return to Bishops Lydeard. The fare for Growler Group members is £15, payable on the day. Non members can join on the day. Information taken from the Growler Group Facebook page. Please note this is a special service.”
     
  13. Colin Allcars

    Colin Allcars Member

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    This thread keeps getting clogged up with non operational discussions. Any chance of a separate thread on management etc?
     
  14. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    Perhaps here lies the dichotomy, no probably here lies the problem.

    You can not divorce operations from revenue ( whether from the farebox, donations etc ),

    The recent ( since the Millenium ?) adverse growth in overheads vs revenue on the majority
    of Heritage Railways has aggravated the current impasse.

    How much of this adverse ratio is as a result of complacent, negligent or even bad management
    it is not for me to judge. ( we should however hopefully learn from past experiences ?)

    What I am certain of is that quality management ( and this particularly relates to the relationship
    between commercial priorities and operational efficiencies) is an essential if the movement is to
    survive.

    Discussing operations without reference to management/commercial issues IMHO is Neroesque ?

    "Neroesque". Not sure if there is such a word, but I feel if not there should be. "Neroesque" sums up
    IMHO so many of our difficulties in the past ( although especially the WSR I suspect many other Railways.)

    Michael Rowe
     
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  15. Colin Allcars

    Colin Allcars Member

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    Ok. How about a separate thread on WSR train activity so that you and your chums can witter away to your hearts content here and those of us left can just enjoy the wonderful railway?
     
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  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Any suggestions for an appropriate thread title? :)
     
  17. Anne C-B

    Anne C-B Member

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    "Forum for those who don't care if the WSR survives its present crises or not."
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This thread I follow (sometimes in utter bemusement) .... and would welcome the thread suggested .... which'd be one I'd not bother to follow. A bit like I welcomed ITVBe as a channel containing 100% garbage in which I've no interest whatsoever!

    Those indulging in a totally unnecessary return to the nonsensical nitpicking and petty point scoring, which too frequently have little or no relevance to reality, put both the WSR and our collective obsession in danger of becoming a national joke. Such folk need to take a long hard look at themselves. This sort of behaviour serves no useful purpose and doesn't reflect well on anyone.

    How I wish there were no obvious parallels I could draw from outside the UK heritage sector!
     
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  19. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Some folk, I guess that come within that category, probably would not miss the WSR as they have interests in the other lines such as Bluebell, SVR, G&WSR and all the rest that are part of NP. Mostly, of its own creation, this thread is the soap opera part of NP it seems.
     
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  20. Colin Allcars

    Colin Allcars Member

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    "The WSR forum for people who care about the railway and who want to hear the positives about the what is happening and the work being done to improve the railway and save it for the future but whose egos do not compel them to constantly witter on about how they disagree with how the WSR is run when they could be usefully giving those ideas to the management of the WSR and not clogging up an otherwise worthy forum". Catchy.
     
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