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Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    Although I love technical info it's all getting a bit heavy.
     
  2. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this thread will be suitable?:)

    https://www.national-preservation.c...s-dbhp-and-related-technical-matters.1183010/

    Knut
     
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  3. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I have learned a lot too, and from Tom's reply to mine on the Ffestiniog/WHR thread. Great posts!

    The LBSCR H2 Atlantic, the topic of this thread, has significant support, and is pretty much on target, and arguably not far off from completion now. It's the home straight now!

    I think the E class discussion also ought to be moved to a different thread, as it is quite separate and different.

    However, for what it's worth, I think the E class is a poor choice. The SECR D class is in York, and for all intents pretty much identical. You are not filling a 'gap' IMHO, just replicating the D class in the NRM. It is also not a Brighton loco, and the Bluebell is quintessentially a LBSCR line that ought to use Brighton engines.

    If there are complications with the LBSCR Lawson Billinton K class mogul bogies - something that is a surprise to me - I personally don't consider this to be a hindrance. I would like to know what particular challenges the LBSCR K class front bogie causes?

    If a CAD drawing exists for the SECR C class and a new set of cylinders already cast, so what! A new CAD drawing etc can be done for the LBSCR K class Mogul. The Bluebell sold their new set of cylinders for their own Terriers for 'Sutton'.

    A gap in the Brighton locos is what is required IMHO for the Bluebell. I would go for a Lawson Billinton K class myself, especially as it was on the original Bluebell list of locos to be preserved.

    I personally don't think the SECR E class were that good, and the LBSCR K class were far better locos and far more suited to the Bluebell Railway as now is.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
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  4. fisher

    fisher New Member

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    Really helpful email Tom. Two six figure sum savings are a pretty strong argument compared to other options.
     
  5. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    The D class in the NRM is possibly the most beautiful, best proportioned and prettiest liveried locomotive in the shop. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Trouble is, its in the NRM, might as well be in the jungle with Lew. It is a picture of a locomotive, lifesized and 3 dimensional, but it is never going to be a locomotive again. That the D is there should not affect either way the choice of whether or not to build an E class.
    A K class might be a nice choice, but there just simply aren't enough 4-4-0's
     
  6. fisher

    fisher New Member

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    Agree with all of this and the other thing that the K class does not provide is a pre-grouping "wow"" livery, surely something to think of in terms of marketing and future public draw. Lovely loco though the K class is, I cannot get too excited by its original livery.
     
  7. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    The NRM apparently had enough 4-4-0s to give one away to the Swanage Railway; the T3. Perhaps they might give also the D to the Bluebell?

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
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  8. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Fisher, a LBSCR K class would look just as stunning as the Bluebell H2 Atlantic in BR black lined out livery. Both would look equally stunning in the SR Maunsell green and lined out. The rather gaudy SECR livery of the Wainright era has never appealed to me - rather like over dressing a Christmas tree. However, I don't think paint/livery should be a factor in deciding a new rebuild at all.

    So what would you think of an SECR E class in WW1 wartime grey? No lining out, and very plain lettering.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  9. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but apparently some people are really intense about liveries.

    Noel
     
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  10. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    K in burnt umber would look stunning.
     
  11. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    I agree about the SECR liver, I thi k it's a bit over elaborate and I prefer Southern green and BR black. However that's not a major factor, the savings and simplicity of the loco are, and I think it's a great idea for a new loco.

    Also, for what it's worth, I would also like a few more T3 situations and locos at the NRM which haven't turned a wheel in years to be made into locos again!
     
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  12. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    When you stop to think, a Brighton Mogul, is one of those, oh so close locos, so close to being preserved but slipped though the fingers, and as a 2-6-0 be more suited to the Bluebell's requirements in years to come, It could carry any number of liveries from Umber, to the final BR line black , and any number of Southern liveries.
     
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  13. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    I have been pondering the choice of the "E" class since the news was announced, purely as an academic exercise, you understand...I have no intention of actually donating to the project so I don't really have any right to comment, but for what it's worth, my thoughts are as follows:

    It appears to me, from what I have read, that the Brighton Atlantic Group want to build another engine for the sake of having a second project, rather than because there is any urgent need for a new engine or burning desire to recreate a particular type. As I have made clear in other threads, personally I think we have more than enough engines in preservation already, so I am reluctant to support new-build schemes unless there is a really compelling reason to build something new. For me, 32424 is one of the few new-build projects that I consider to be genuinely worthwhile. Giving us an SG 4-4-2 fills a big gap in the ranks of working engines, and since there was a suitable boiler available it made good sense to do it.

    In terms of filling historical "gaps", I don't think either an E or a K are particularly significant. We already have an SECR 4-4-0, albeit non-working, in No. 737. Admittedly, the surviving late Victorian/Edwardian 4-4-0s are getting older, and there may be questions about the viability of keeping them running in the long term; but there are already two new build schemes aiming to recreate 4-4-0s from that era (GCR 567 and George the Fifth). As for the K, we already have examples of early Mogul designs from Churchward and Maunsell. I suppose the one thing you might say for the K is that we have no Lawson Billinton locos preserved; but then, with all due respect to the late Mr. Billinton, was he really particularly significant as a locomotive designer?

    However, I think JMA1009 is right to point out that the Bluebell was originally a Brighton line, and it is ironic that it has become so dependent on SECR stock in preservation (although I am glad that the vehicles in question have found a good home!). I think he is also right that demise of the K class has always been strongly lamented among enthusiasts, particularly because the Bluebell would have saved one if it had only been able to raise the funds in time. I cannot help wondering whether future generations of Bluebell volunteers might regret letting this design slip away from them a second time? But then, I am not a Bluebell volunteer so who am I to say?

    What would I have built, if it were up to me? Well, if I had to be build an SECR 4-4-0 I would have either gone for one of the older Stirling designs, or for the L class. The latter were not as pretty as the Ds, but rugged and handsome; and there is an interesting story attached to them in that the German-built examples were only just completed before WWI. Indeed, you could market the project as "recreating the last Edwardian express engine"...not bad, as slogans go?! (I appreciate, though, the practical advantages of the E class in terms of commonality of parts.) Alternatively, I know that a Craven 2-4-0 or a Brighton Baltic tank were floated as ideas at one stage, and either of those would have been very worthwhile IMHO...for the former, we have no working SG 2-4-0, and there is a general shortage of mid-Victorian designs...for the latter, none of the pre-grouping 4-6-2T or 4-6-4T designs survive, and that is actually quite a significant gap. Personally, I think the LBSCR 4-6-2Ts were actually better-proportioned than the 4-6-4Ts, but the latter is a more representative design. Another idea that occurred to me in an idle moment was that, since 488 is going to need very major renewals in order to run again, why not build a new Adams Radial so that the original can be conserved in its current state?

    To be honest, though, if I had the money to spare I'd probably donate it to the Bluebell's C&W department anyway. In an ideal world, I'd rather focus on getting the original historic carriages in the railway's sidings undercover and running again before thinking about new locos. I appreciate that the real world is not quite as simple as that, however!
     
  14. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    You can say that again. Brighton umber is, to my mind, one of the most beautiful and under-rated liveries in railway history. It would look good on almost any engine, IMHO!
     
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  15. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    NER 4-4-0 would get me excited.
     
  16. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    So could Mr Stroudley's Improved locomotive green! Just look how bland that sand/yellow colour looked when applied to a class 52 Western hydraulic, without all that lining and secondary green [I think it was ] shading.,....

    P.S. what's an SECR liver:confused:! I've edited your quote in my reply. As I can trip myself in the same way, when composing replies etc., when I get ahead of myself in my mind when typing.
     
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  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Just a thought, but, thanks in no small part to A1SLT and the G5 mob, a replacement for the D's knackered crank axle is no longer an insurmountable problem.
    That would be something to see (even if, of extinct NER locos, it's the A6 pacific tank wot floats my boat), but I'm not too sure it folows that the same level of excitement would by likely in deepest Sussex! :)
     
  18. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Bloody predictive text, when in a bit of a hurry before taking my lad to football!
     
  19. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    Don't you just love it the modern technological answer to "Chinese whispers." You can type "black" and it'll print "White", so to speak:eek:;).
     
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  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That’s nothing, for a (short) period the LBSCR had “Liver and Bacon” livery. It wasn’t well regarded.

    Tom
     
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