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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. snappertim

    snappertim New Member

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    We are all entitled to have an opinion and express it, but I do find it disappointing that you find the offerings at the BL shop "very poor" except for model railway enthusiasts.
    Basically there are two main issues: management and staffing and the premises.
    Kate, the manager, is a very loyal experienced retailer who effectively leads a very good team of volunteers. The vast majority of visitors to WSR are not avid railway enthusiasts but the general public who visit as a day out. The shop sells everything from daily newspapers [who would want to read these whilst travelling through the splendid Somerset countryside, I have no idea], to books , new and "2nd hand, to WSR and local souvenirs, Thomas and children items and yes. Model Railway items at competitive prices. In short in very cramped premises there is something for everyone. The BL shop stock compares very favourably with other such establishments in the Heritage Railway sector, and frankly much better than many I have visited. In short she and her team do a great job in what is today a very difficult retail environment.

    That said the trade in the shop, and especially the café , I would suggest, has outgrown the premises. We are where we are, and BL is not the easiest site to develop for a variety of reasons. I suspect also that the majority of our visitors,who start from BL, want to find their seat on the train, rather than linger in the café. Maybe a larger comfortable café would entice visitors to linger more, and thus spend more is a matter for greater minds than mine. It also begs the question on where the funds are going to come from, and as Michael Rowe says what would be the ROCE?

    In short, at the risk of being complacent, which I am not, there is always room for improvement, the shop and café does now and has done as "Arkwrights" , as Robin has indicated, produced very valuable income for the WSR and a good visitor experience..
     
  2. DragonHandler

    DragonHandler Well-Known Member

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    The WSR website is not created and maintained 'in-house' by a member of staff, paid or volunteer, it's outsourced to a commercial web design company.
    So it's highly likely that the WSR webmaster does not have the ability to change any content themselves, they have to contact the design company and request the changes to be made, for which the company will presumably make a charge.
    Trawling through a whole website to check it's up to date is a time consuming task, as I know from personal experience.
    If you have access to the code and can make the changes yourself it's relatively straightforward to make the necessary changes, if you have to note down the page and location on the page of each and every change and then send that list to an external agency it becomes a bit more difficult.
     
  3. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Very well said Tim. Kate and her team run a good operation despite very cramped conditions. I shall be sorry to see the operation sold to the PLC. Even this presents a problem. The shop is, AIUI owned and operated by the WSRA. As a charity the WSRA is legally obliged to get “full value” for any asset it sells. This means that it could be VERY expensive for the WSR PLC to buy it. This might mean that it could be too high a price for the PLC to bear.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  4. snappertim

    snappertim New Member

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    Peter. Thanks.

    Your response has raised other issues which no doubt will send a whole host of droves of hares running!

    What is important, especially now, seems to me to be

    1. The shop and café profits must be for the benefit of the WSR as a whole, which, for example, would buy a fair number of 60' track panels! Running trains will not generate the income needed to maintain 20 miles of infrastructure.
    2. Even more important is that all the staff/volunteers are respected and happy with whatever outcome.

    As the man said "we are all in it together".
     
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    "Full value" doesn't necessarily mean highest price though. What's better value, selling it to the Plc for a nominal sum so it continues to benefit the railway, thus fulfilling the aim of the WSRA, or selling it to the highest bidder who can then do as they please with it?

    Is there any evidence that the Plc intend to make any significant change to staffing?

    Is the WSRA or WSSRT in a position to fund such things as track renewals if they had the money and were so minded? To my mind they would be unable to fulfil their charitable objectives if there were no railway so it seems there ought to be a case for them to do so. I know I wouldn't have a problem with the trust on my own railway doing so, especially if it meant the Plc could spend funds on something else that a trust couldn't help with.
     
  6. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Was that David Cameron? Look what a disgrace he made for himself and gave us the divided country we now live in.
     
  7. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Fair enough Tim. I hope you feel it is a valid point. From what I have heard many people don’t know this although it is no secret. Likewise many people are confused by the difference between the WSRA, (a charity), and the WSR PLC that owns, leases , the railway, and operates it.
     
  8. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Only one comment applies and that is ONE RAILWAY - do you get it now?
     
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  9. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Does the WSRA actually pay a market rental for the shop? (question not aimed at you). If not, the value may be somewhat less than the headline figures suggest.
     
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  10. jumper

    jumper New Member

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    The question of assets belonging to a Charity have been discussed here before (but regarding another asset). The Charity cannot simply dispose of something without achieving a 'proper' and justifiable market price price for it. This does not preclude a Charity receiving the sale proceeds and then spending them on a Charitable objective. Covering operating expenses of another organisation would not be allowable. I've seen it argued that funding bullhead rail replacement in a station area if the alternative was welded flatbottom rail would be OK as it preserves the 'heritage' aspect. I am sure that there are many legitimate projects that could be found available for funding. However once spent, the Charity (with its tax advantages) will obviously have less income in future years.
     
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  11. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    I have always found Sam White, the WSR’s efficient Commercial Officer, very receptive to folk who have spotted something on the WSR plc’s website that needs updating.

    That kind of constructive help is always valuable.

    Robin
     
  12. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, but nobody at the WSRA is legally allowed to put aside the legal requirement that they receive market value for it.

    Noel
     
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  13. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you have identified the issue with the WSRA in that its charitable objectives are actually too narrow or are being interpreted in too narrow a way.
    On another railway north of Somerset the very supportive Charitable Trust regularly assists with funds for PW replacement in modern, low maintenance materials whilst there is a policy of keeping b/h track within station limits. This makes a major difference between either having a railway for the future or the unthinkable alternative. In fact there is nothing "unheritage" about the use of FB rail and there are plenty of photographs showing steam traction operating on FB rail. See here https://www.svrtrust.org.uk/index.php?page=Permanent Way

    We were told at the working members meetings earlier in the year that a new 60ft length of b/h rail had a price tag of over £800 whilst a similar length of f/b was over £500. Others within PW experience may perhaps comment but once laid, f/b track is significantly less expensive in maintenance costs (especially if long welded) than b/h chaired track.

    Surely the WSRA finding the £300+ difference simply to afford b/h rail, whilst ignoring the future maintenance cost advantage of f/b is simply wasting scarce funding which should be far better used on the modern alternative?

    There is no good reason why any reausable b/h track components cannot be recovered and reused within station limits if a significant continuous length of new or good s/h f/b was laid to replace one of the current worst sections.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  14. thequantocks

    thequantocks Member

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    Surely any money charged could be a paperwork exercise as the WSRA exsists to support the WSR Plc so could be gifted back strait away. Unless the WSRA have another use for it? This would ensure the railway has the profits from the shop ad infernitum.
     
  15. free2grice

    free2grice Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thanks to Steve Edge for his wsr.org website and the following update.

    Minutes of the latest Board of Trustees meeting held on Wednesday, 24th April, 2019.
    http://www.wssrt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/minutes-of-24-april-2019-meeting.pdf

    One point that I noted:
    ''In terms of Infrastructure, JJP said that in order to achieve compliance on key requirements the PLC needed to invest around £400,000 in 2019 and that the railway would probably be closed for possession purposes between October, 2019 and March, 2020 to undertake the work''.

    <BJ>
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  16. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    What really surprises me is the view expressed that there is a need for two supporting charities. What on earth does this achieve apart from the duplication of administrative effort and expense?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2019
  17. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Nice to know but the Chairman needs to tell us in more detail. AIUI the shareholders are going to put up more money and that will require detailed up to date financial information and exactly what sporks are to be done. There are strict rules that have to be complied with in such circumstances.
     
  18. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    For me this decision also has wider implications: “In relation to wider issues on the WSR, JJP said that he fully supported the education and volunteering work. The PLC was not however supportive of the emerging suggestions from the Association that a single new charity should be formed from the Steam Trust and the current WSRA. He shared the view of the Steam Trust that this would not contribute to meeting any of the key strategic objectives at this time.”

    #flying scotsman 123 a few posts above asked if the WSRA or WSSRT are in a position to fund such things as track renewals? The answer is no most likely not, neither can fund raise to any greater level than previously if the structure of the WSR doesn’t change. The large funders need a one charity with a clear remit approach. It’s the same issue that has been in place for many years. The quote above says “emerging suggestion”, fine it’s been put back into the lime light recently but it’s not new. Whilst the new Chairman may have come in and caused a few new issues the main underlying issue is still there: The people on the various Boards don’t trust each other, can’t get passed the past and so stop change.

    External grant funding will not be gained to any useful level without a changing of the structure, I don’t think it needs a large change just a re-arranging of what’s there currently. I believe with cooperation and debate between the three parties concerned a way can be found for all to continue to enjoy what they do on the WSR and for a one charity, one railway solution to meet funder’s requirements. I do see why individuals say no, I do see why they want to carry on enjoying a hobby their way, but this is now about the WSR continuing or not, not individuals wants.

    Now whilst grant funding is only a part of a ‘healthy balanced diet’ it will cover the costs of track, carriage sheds and new shops/education centres/restaurants/visitor centres (BL has 6 acres of land for this already). Clearly to me the old mis-trust and rivalries are still there, the people in post in the last 4 years have not sorted it out, they must. In those years the money has been running out, it still is. It’s a mathematical certainty that this can only go one way, unless it changes the WSR will be in the type of trouble that’s not good.

    So the question to the good people of the WSR is: Where is the £400k this year and £500k pa ongoing going to come from? The fare box, additional profit from the shop at BL (which I agree is well run and has outgrown its space), donations from Volunteers/Stake Holders or external grant funding, or does somebody have a secret pot of gold somewhere? Which route is most likely to save the WSR and how do you achieve that in the most effective way?

    Lastly one question: A couple of people I have spoken to in the last few days on this subject say I’m impatient and I should let it sort itself out because all know the issues. I agree, they do know the issues and I am impatient. My impatience meant I achieved £185k additional funding in 2018. So with the clock running down does the WSR need some impatience or continuation of the same laissez faire? Perhaps ‘playing a long game’ is not now an option, the maths shows that to be the case. It boils down to where is £400k going to come from by this winter and then where is a minimum of £500k a year on going after that: Does anybody have that answer in a defined and achievable recovery plan or will the begging bowl come out at the last ‘oh s**t’ moment?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  19. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    The answer is the Chairman MUST start acting in a collegiate way and involve the board rather than acting in an autocratic manner.
     
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  20. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    I agree with your comment that the Chairman has acted in an autocratic way, however to jump to his defence in this case the minutes state “The PLC” therefore its clearly stated that the PLC Board have agreed not just the Chairman. So another question which perhaps should be asked is when did the Board debate this, I assume the WSRA must have presented the case to them for one charity so they could have decided with the necessary facts. Perhaps shareholders should ask for a copy of the relevant PLC Board Minutes, that way if this is the wrong decision or indeed the right one the relevant people can be held accountable or thanked as necessary.
     
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