If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've always understood that the K1 was more or less the engine Gresley wanted to build as his six=coupled freight engine but he was forced to costs, hence the outcome became the J38/9s
     
  2. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    511
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    well , more than one .
    having been introduced to Holcroft's gear , he stated he would only build 3 cyl. locos in the future . that is blinkered .
    I still say the V2 should have been a decent 4-6-0 . of Scot proportions with 3 sets of Walschaerts gear
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,771
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Except Gresley did build two cylinder locos after being introduced to Holcroft’s gear. J38/39 to his own design plus further construction of some pre grouping designs.
     
  4. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Messages:
    8,077
    Likes Received:
    2,264
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Engineer Emeritus
    Location:
    Aylesbury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But would it have done the job with a narrow firebox? You seem to have overlooked an initial design of a modified K3 with an articulated bogie coupling it to the tender. Gresley wanted (or at least approved) the use of a wide fireboxed boiler, so the next logical step was a 2-6-2 as we know it. However, perhaps quite unwittingly, he started a new trend of a heavy mixed traffic loco with 6' - 2" drivers that could not only handle fast freight as its original intention, but also turned out to be a very effective 'back-up' to the Pacifics.

    Certainly Bullied with his MN, WC/BB locos took this on board, with Thompson and Peppercorn for the A2s. Interestingly E. S. Cox in his writings referred to a wartime proposal of a 3-cylinder 2-6-2 for the LMS that never came to fruition...........
     
  5. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,160
    I think one or two who have returned to discussing Great Northern have either not read or forgotten some of the earlier posts. Simon has tried to remind us all, so let's be clear. For accounting purposes and because of wartime restrictions, ET's prototype new Pacific would be regarded as a "rebuild" of a Gresley Pacific though it would actually incorporate a lot of brand new material, some from the spares pool, and not very much from the original. Great Northern was due for a heavy general overhaul so was selected (not by ET) as the basis for the "rebuild". Someone decided that, rather than have the name disappear, the new loco would carry it. Thus there appeared the story that Thompson had "butchered" Great Northern, that he had done so out of spite, and that he must have hated Gresley and all Gresley's works. Simon has provided ample contrary evidence in this thread.
     
  6. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    283
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    100 year old locomotive technology history is interesting but not important.
    Incompetent management/Government allowing people with big egos to waste other peoples money is an eternal problem.
    This is what make this Thompson after Gresley thing interesting for me.
    Been there,seen it.

    GWR disassembled a lot of (Holcroft designed) 2-6-0s and reused parts for 4-6-0s.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  7. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,751
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    When you say ET did not have the authority, what was the reporting line of the person (Musgrave?) who did make the selection?
     
  8. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,265
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Without reading in detail I see the thread has moved onto 2-6-2 types. So is the consensus that the V2 was the engine that won the war because of their herculean haulage feats , or did we win the war because they needed repairs after performing said feats?

    Jon
     
  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I find it very hard to take the statement "the engine that won the war" very seriously! Can anyone really believe the result of the war would have been much different if Gresley had built Stanier 8fs instead of V2s?
     
    RalphW, Bluenosejohn, ross and 3 others like this.
  10. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,761
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I also think the conjugated valve gear maintenance question needs separating into two:
    1.for smaller engines, which would have had only 2 cylinders on other railways (essentially everything except the Pacific, Mikados and V2) then 3 cyl conjugated must have increased maintenance compared to 2 cylinders.
    2. for the larger engines, which would have had three sets of independent gear (or even four) on other railways, the conjugated gear *should* have reduced maintenance, but in fact it appears to have performed very variably: according to posts on this thread it did well at Haymarket, with new big ends, when optically aligned later; according to all accounts it was very problematic in war time.
    So the question of how good it was, or how sensible was the decision to use it on the two groups of engines, is slightly different.
    Note also that Thompson's "solutions" for the two groups was different.
    I repeat that I think Gresley *was* a preeminent genius.
    Nevertheless, for my money (Crewe/Horwich bias declared), on Group 1 engines it created unnecessary maintenance compared to 2 cyl.
    On Group 2 it was clearly a problem in wartime, which is when the decisions to change it were taken. I have to say, based on what I've read on this forum, as a practicing engineer (albeit Civil in my case), if it was my call, and based on that data, I'd have done the same as Thompson and plumped for conversation to independent gear.
     
    bluetrain and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  11. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,265
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Of course it's not a serious statement, but when discussing the demanding maintenance requirements of the V2's in wartime surely the abnormal work that they (and all classes) were being asked to perform should be taken into consideration ?

    Jon
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That patently is not true when you look at the context of the war, the maintenance issue, the Cox report, and the clear availability problems the LNER conjugated fleet had which were in excess of similarly aged and simpler machines.

    We can choose to ignore the LNERs own data on this or not. That’s your choice: but it is incredibly obtuse to suggest there were absolutely no issues. There patently were.
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,771
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Have it your own way.
     
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The engine that won the war was the Stanier 8F.

    Built for all four railway companies to do work that each required on trains for the war effort (armaments, vehicles, coal and steel) and proved reliable throughout at home and abroad.

    End of discussion.
     
    andrewshimmin and Cartman like this.
  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The response of someone who knows they have no reply.

    Sorry Spamcan, you actually do produce some good objective posts but we cannot ignore the evidence that we have.

    That actually has been part of the problem where railway history is concerned - period - not just Gresley and Thompson, but elsewhere too.
     
  16. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,265
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Given that this thread focusses on the need for locos to fit wartime requirements, surely the WD at least equals the 8F ?

    Jon
     
    Cartman likes this.
  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Honourable mention most definitely.
     
    oldmrheath likes this.
  18. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    or maybe the Rolls-Royce Merlin...
     
  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Fitted with Campbell & Banks piston rings designed by Captain (Peter?) Campbell & the P&A Campbell works manager, Mr Banks so IMHO oit was White Funnel wot won it............
     
  20. Muzza

    Muzza New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    181
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mareeba, Qld, Australia
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I have not failed to read the previous posts, nor have I forgotten them.
    Simon has done great research and he has formed his opinions based on that. But that does not mean he is right and that no one can question his findings.

    I don’t understand why someone further down the chain can select a particular loco for rebuilding, and that the man at the top had to accept that decision.

    This was the LNER after all - the one big four railway that seemed to appreciate a sense of its history. The national collection would be a lot poorer without the preservation efforts of the NER and LNER.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

Share This Page