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Long Term Steam Routes

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by KentYeti, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    A number of places have had "steam age" infrastructure restored or maintained over the years. The obvious examples are Scarborough (turntable re-installed with funding from local councils), Garsdale (water tower), Appleby (water tower), Yeovil Junction (turntable retained by BR and now operated by volunteer society), Fort William & Mallaig (turntables installed). Some of these examples are more successful than others - e.g. IIRC the West Highland turntables are very seldom used; Garsdale water stops are very rare now; Scarborough TT was unused for several years (1990s?) but now gets 4 - 5 trains a week during high summer plus occassional specials during the year.

    If the local councils wish to do more to attract steam tours to Weymouth, a new turntable might not be top of the wish-list. There's one at Yeovil Junction already (though there are operational problems getting there and back in a short time, because of the single track) and the Swanage Railway is seriously considering installing a large TT at Norden. I suggest it might be better for them to put some money towards the Worgert/Wareham signalling scheme, or perhaps there are smaller improvements that could be made to the track layout at Weymouth, to make shunting and run-rounds easier?

    More generally, I'd suggest backing schemes to (re-)install loops, double track, missing chords from triangles, etc. These would increase capacity for slower-running trains, which make it easier to path steam-hauled trains, and are generally useful for all rail operators. Let's start with double track from Exeter to Salisbury!!
     
  2. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Totally off topic but the floods were in 2007!!! (I know my house suffered as a result - Luckily only the once in July unlike the SVR which had two incidents to deal with). You make an interesting point regarding the benefit the local community gains from the railway - some businesses closed in Bridgnorth and this was seen as a direct result of the railways problems which brings me sort of in a roundabout way back on Topic! If the infustructure is placed at the end of a regular route and the route is considered attractive to the average punter then it can really benefit the local community. Maybe if this could be driven home to the local businesses etc then this could pave the way to some form of sponsership deal (in the same vein as the Britain in bloom encourages local businesses to sponser a flower bed.
     
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Reinstating the proper route to Exeter is long overdue. However there are the small problems (other than the cost, of course) of all the vegetation to clear plus dropping the track so the route fits under the bridges again!
     
  4. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    The issue of turntables is relevant to many destinations that could be very popular for steam. Scarborough has been very lucky to have a retained turntable nearby. How much business is generated by the many tours to Scab. Quite an income stream for a tired seaside resort and much valued I would wager. Blackpool is also an under utilised destination with multi platform station, lots to do in a few hours and as accessible in time as Scab. Poulton triangle could be rebuilt.

    Long term, steam routes will compete with the rest of rail travel for paths. As long as we have reliable locos that can meet the speed requirements then let's make hay!
     
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I could also nominate Southport as a place of interest - and I have suggested to various parties that a regfular steam train from Manchester to Southport using ELR-based locomotives could be a worthwhile option; the fact that Southport still retains its triangle is a plus point that could be removed / fall into disrepair before anyone appreciates its value.

    Scarborough reflects the interesting point that it has changed from a resort that attracts holidaymakers staying for a week / fortnight to use as a base for holiday activities to one that is basically used by visitors as a day-trip destination. Many seaside locations haven't adapted to this change but one of the factors that might help the adaption process is the day trips during the season with steam haulage providing the extra incentive.

    WCRC might be tardy in some respects but their successful operation of the Cambrian, Jacobite and Scarborough Spa day trips confirms the change and the success of those operators who adjust to the new lifestyles and market their trains accordingly.
     
  6. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    If I've read other threads correctly then the issue of local council etc funding for the Wareham-Swanage link was finally agreed yesterday or the day before. And of course a larger turntable at Swanage will be an enormous benefit. But that still leaves Weymouth with single track sections between it and turning locos.

    Other schemes sound great guys. But none have the draw that Weymouth will have because of the Olympics, and some sound a trifle expensive. As if re-installation of a turntable and all associated works would not be.
     
  7. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

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    Southport is a good option too. In fact any destination where the passengers can spend a few hours and bring income to a local economy. Joe Public likes the idea of a trip "somewhere" on the novelty of a steam train. Everyone wins.
     
  8. Jon Martin

    Jon Martin New Member

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    Southport does have a nice big station. Would be good with an ELR black 5 from Manchester .. or if they get the Crab or Standard 4 tank running

    what about running into the Liverpool docks via the freight line from Edge Hill ?
     
  9. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    If the missing link was put in at Ford, trains from London could run down the Arun valley line and turn East for Worthing, Hove and Brighton. Paths available for steam (unlike the mainline), good destinations for day trips, and trains can turn at Brighton.
     
  10. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    Wouldn't be too bad but Sussex has a lack of mainline steam. Steam Dreams I think have removed Chichester from its destinations this year and the only other trains that run are the Railway Touring Company Bath and Bristol trips which start at Haywards Heath or Three Bridges.
     
  11. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Funny, I was only wondering today if the triangle at Southport was still extant - logged on here and there's the answer :) . Although 27C is now long gone, (I was a member there in the early 70s), regular runs to Southport would bring back both memories & thoughts of 'what if' :) . I wonder what the local council would think, were it to be put to them?
     
  12. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    I was going to respond to the suggestions for "Plandampf" thread-drift on the Tornado thread a while ago, but decided that this is a better place to put it. After watching an episode of"Coast" I was wondering about Stranraer to Ayr (or possibly further north) as a possible route for steam. Its about 40 miles long - slightly less than "the Jacobite" and quite scenic with a coastal section in the north with views of the island of "Ailsa Craig". Both ends are more or less at sea-level, but it rises to over 650 feet in the Galloway Hills. It would also have good access for visitors from Glasgow and Northern Ireland.
     
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  13. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    It seems t0 me given the way things are going in terms of both train speeds,frequency & of course infrastructure that dedicated routes are the way to go
     
  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I know that some might argue that Mallaig is not a tourist hot spot (although I gather that the steam trains in the summer are very welcome), however Stranraer really does have little to commend it, imo. That said, any line with an infrequent service and with decent scenery would be the way to go for steam. That is why the Jacobite works. I'm surprised that Carnforth to Barrow hasn't been tried with an occasional steam service train but no doubt there are logistical issues and, sadly, no tank engines up there.
     
  15. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    I've heard that in Germany "Plandampf" is organised to support regions that require "economic help."
    Regarding the Barrow line, a few years ago I did the cross Morecambe Bay walk along with about 500 others. This starts near Arnside Station and finishes near Kent's Bank station (both on the Barrow line). A train to provide a "return working" would have been very welcome and presumably quite lucrative.
     
  16. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    So North Wales Coast, Cambrian, Cumbrian Ditto, West Wales, Stranraer Line, all sound like they could benefit then..........
     
  17. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    Long term steam routes can start to get interesting given the way that the market is opening up to new companies. WCRC have reduced to concentrate on their own core activities and areas, based off Carnforth and Southall. However, now Saphos are soon to be operating off Crewe and Vintage from Tysley.

    This will change the market for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, each company will have to find crews that can engines of a certain class and also sign the routes that each company wants to run. It will see companies start to get routes from their main bases, ran in a conventional format that doesn’t need much infrastructure putting in. These companies will not foot the bill for adding in new kit, such as a turntable and for Network rail most of the time the business case is not there for them to then fund it.

    West Coast already run regular routes from Carnforth during summer and this will continue. I expect Saphos to be running the Torbay Express and for Vintage to launch their own trips on the back of their operations such as the Shakespeare Express. Away from the summer season each company will also do day excursions to other destinations.

    However, the second point is that engines are now being signed to companies to operate on their safety case and company operations. Gresley has gone to Saphos, Duke of Gloucester has gone to Vintage. In ways that are like seeing a footballer being signed to watch when your team plays, now engines are being signed up to draw passengers to booking with companies that will likely get use of the engine. There is the possibility that other companies might sign an engine too, however, I think it likely that companies will get more or less exclusive rights. That will make it interesting for companies who can provide a range of tours for those interested in the traction up front.

    In any case, it will soon become regular over which company runs which engine and most of the buying public will be happy to travel behind any on the day.

    In terms of where they can go – it will evolve around pathing and where tours can run. Some routes have capacity for steam trips on a regular basis. The Jacobite has become established, as are WCRC’s other operations on the Settle and Carlisle and Scarbrough. Some existing ones I expect will change operators, such as Torbay to Saphos (which I think was planned or sub-contracted by DB). Others will be established as new and eventually become the norm. I think the North Wales coast, runs to York and Welsh Marshes are likely with Saphos and with Vintage trips through, or from, the midlands to destinations such as Nottingham, York, Oxford, London. Much of this will depend on capacity on routes and speed trains can do.

    The exceptions to this will be from one or two railways that head towards the main network. Already the NYMR has established Whitby as a norm, but there could be possibility of reinstating the extra platform at Battersby and a loop at Glaisdale – though the latter is remote at present. Others are extending the NNR to Cromer, which has been added to the NYMR safety case. Others like Swanage are more problematic as where would you go and there isn’t facilities to run round – your also running onto a more busy mainline.

    Some will mask a mainline feel while being in preservation – the extension of the GCR has potential to make a massive main line route while still being preserved, while others like the GWR are lengthened too. Other lines, such as the PDR run as a modern format commercial while being ‘preserved’.

    In essence that’s where I expect the market will go. Its going to be interesting to see it develop and I think steams future on the mainline will be secure. Its just a case of where it goes and where it becomes established.
     
  18. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I remember part of the discussion on the WCRC Debacle a few years ago is that doing a regular, linear run is a lot simpler in terms of route knowlege than 'round the houses' where the driver 'signs' all the routes but does odd bits of several in a strange order.

    It seems to me in any event given the changing safety climate & the relatively limited number of steam runs that a repeat itinerary trip, at least for the steam section has a lot to be said for it from a safety angle
     
  19. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    seems to me Swanage should get on with installing their turntable, would be an even more popular destination then.
     
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  20. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    It seems inevitable that the future for steam will be on "designated" routes with reducing opportunities to run more widely on the network. Taking this further, "I have a dream" that one day NR could identify specific lines - the S&C would be ideal - as a heritage line that remains part of the national network but is maintained to be able to accept modern rolling stock as well as the full range of preserved traction, including Kings and 9Fs. This would involve keeping suitable gaps at the edge of platforms, semaphore signals, no check rails to interfere with the 9Fs, etc. If steam operations were concentrated to provide more revenue for specific lines, I wonder if the economics could make this more than WIBN.
     

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