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GCR Ending of Lineside Passes, ex-Bridge that Gap: Great Central Railway News

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by LMarsh1987, Nov 26, 2018.

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  1. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Wait a while, them put it on Ebay categorizing it as RARE! :D
     
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  2. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Martin,
    If you mean the reserve at Swithland you can get access for photography if you apply to Severn and Trent Water. It's just some people can't be bothered
     
  3. jsm8b

    jsm8b Part of the furniture

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    That covers most of what's gone through my mind.
    As Martin says the attitude of self entitlement is far too frequent. Last year someone inside the fence at Shotlock Hill was adamant that there was nothing to say he shouldn't be there. What can you do, apart from just trusting the worst doesn't happen.

    Does anyone know the numbers affected, I've had the feeling for some years that the number of passholders lineside at the GC seems quite high compared to elsewhere.
     
  4. Andy Louch

    Andy Louch Member

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    When I spoke to the guys checking lineside passes at the gala, they suggested the revenue the passes bring in is in the order of £50,000 pa so at £40 a pop somewhere in the order of 750? Not including 'friends membership fees.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    If it is really £50k at £40 a go, then it is 1250, not 750. Seems an incredibly high number to me. More pertinently, if the income is really that high, surely it would still cover a pretty substantial insurance premium? Are you sure about the number (or maybe - was your informant sure?)

    Tom
     
  6. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    I think (happy to be corrected) pass is £65 as it includes £25 FOMSLT membership
     
  7. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    This all may seem a bit harsh right now but how about this for an indication of just how silly it could get:- After the tragic Hunter crash on the A27 the CAA have decreed that airshow organisers now have to show a duty of care to people outside the airfields who may gather in 'dangerous' locations' (i.e. on the side of a public road) to watch the airshow for free. Now how on earth are they supposed to do that?
    So let's be thankful that railways do not (yet?) have to worry about the safety of people standing on bridges or outside the fence to watch the trains. If it goes on this way the railway children would be prosecuted for waving at the trains "In an unsafe manner which could have distracted the driver thereby creating a risk..." (Gasp, shock, horror!)
     
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  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A couple of pertinent points from a well respected charter operator that highlights the problem IMHO. The photography fraternity needs to look to itself and ask serious questions in order to make responsible decisions regarding future activities. As a regular charter attendee until 2017, when I had to have an unexpected by-pass operation, my post-operative reassessment included the acceptance that charter attendance was a health hazard too much and future lineside photography would need to be either locations which I could reach by car OR on stations where there was someone around in case of problem. As Martin indicates such decisions are not lightly made BUT they must be considered in the light of experience and (unpleasant) decisions taken.

    Whilst the decision by the GCR might sound like bad news, it may be good news for heritage lines where charters are both encouraged and supported as demand for charter facilities may encourage an increased number of opportunities hence income for supportive lines. It is also good news that some lines are slowly being forced to accept that they are now part of a commercial environment where legal responsibilities have to be accepted and lineside photographers also have to accept their part of the changes by acknowledging that their rights of access may impinge on the responsibilities.


    As Martin notes some of these changes may have been inspired by the irresponsibility of some hence both heritage lines and railway photographers need to reassess their relationship in a way that accepts railway photography whilst protecting the interests of the heritage line(s).
     
  9. Andy Louch

    Andy Louch Member

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    Yes, if you factor in the cost of being a 'friend' (£25 or £22 if over 65) you end up with something like 770 pass holders which, although high, seems possible.
    To add to Martins' comments, I heard that the 'final straw' was when railway management received a photo of a lineside pass holder walking in the 4 foot (totally against the rules) and refused to move when asked to by the photographer who was another pass holder. In my working experience, when you get such evidence as management of any organisation you have to take action since this is a clear breach of safety rules and policies. It is a clear indication that pass holders cannot police the system effectively.
     
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  10. frazoulaswak

    frazoulaswak Member

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    What else would you suggest as an effective way in which line side pass holders could police the system in their own interests? Giving management a photo of anyone wearing an individually numbered orange vest who was stupid enough to wilfully ignore the rules so that management could take the appropriate action - revocation of said idiot’s pass - is the only practicable way that authorised pass holders could effectively police the system.

    For my part, as a GCR lineside pass holder, I am extremely disappointed by this development and I have decided that I no longer wish to be a member of the FoGCML as a direct consequence because lineside photography for me was the pro quo for the 300 plus quid per year that I have been giving, in one way or another, to the GCR.
     
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  11. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agree but such action could be restricted to the offender. This OTT reaction will cost the railway a lot in lost revenue and goodwill. In the last 50 years of preservation how many linesiders have been killed or injured? The far greater danger is the road journey to get to the railway. I can see a time coming when the men in suits who seem to have hijacked the heritage railway movement will say photo charters are dangerous and they will also be a thing of the past
     
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  12. Andy Louch

    Andy Louch Member

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    Mick, thanks for comment. I'm not criticising the action taken. Indeed, as you say, the fairest action would have been to withdraw the 'offenders' pass on an individual basis. However, I think that there was a pretty strong lobby to stop the lineside pass system prior to this 'final straw' and it was easier for management to stop the practice for all linesiders using this as evidence that the rules were being flouted.
    Had there been a serious incident subsequently , the railway would find it very difficult to justify continuing to issue passes given such evidence. It is easier to impose and manage a 'blanket ban' so that anyone found beyond the publicly accessible areas can be asked to leave by railway personnel.
    I too am very disapointed since the main reason for my visits to the railway was to experience the unique access given by the lineside permit system both for photography and simple 'watching the action' at places like Swithland so am unlikely to renew my FoGCML membership too.
     
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  13. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Possibly relevant to this discussion is the incident a few years back when a photographer was injured at Kinchley Lane after being too near to a passing train and moved before the train had passed his location hence coming into contact with IIRC the running board of a coach. I believe concern was raised then about the "lineside" rules and possible restrictions but it appeared little action was taken at the time although as one without GCR lineside permit I am willing to be corrected on this point.
     
  14. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

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    One thing which I don't get is why if its now an issue it isn't an instant withdrawal rather than setting the 1st January as expiry dates, if it is not a big enough issue to mean an instant withdrawal then letting the passes run to expiry would of been fine, the amount of admin going into the cancellation must be huge, with personalised emails going out with the amount the railway owes you stated on them (although this doesn't include percentage of friends membership, which many like myself only have for the lineside pass)...
     
  15. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    I suspect it would be far too difficult to police who would still have a valid pass, and who had decided to keep going lineside when their pass had expired. A blanket date, whichever is chosen means only those with a valid work reason should be on or around the track
     
  16. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    there was a video photographer who iirc had set his tripod up too close to the running line and was caught by a passing carriage
     
  17. SouthWestMainline

    SouthWestMainline New Member

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    What you are missing is that the GCR are trying their best to not have a "serious incident". The GCR wants and has to run a safe as reasonably possible railway
    If there was a serious incident the railway would be asked by RAIB, ORR and the courts why they did not take any action after many instances of misuse/near miss etc.

    The GCR are doing the correct thing..... most, if not all other railways do not allow line side passes.
     
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  18. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    One problem I suspect for most heritage/tourist lines, along with the national system, is that generally speaking everyone with some type of mobile 'phone is now a 'photographer' of sorts. I am sure there are many instances where platform staff need to advise people about their safety.
     
  19. David likes trains

    David likes trains Member

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    Agree with most of your post Martin, but I would say that's a minority of said fraternity. I have held a GCR lineside pass for the past year and believe I have adhered to the rules and guidelines set out by the railway. But I would accept the point that a minority behaving badly makes everyone else look bad.
    As for publicity photos I'm sure if the railway needs some they can get them done. They have plenty of working members qualified to go lineside, I know at least one who is also a keen photter as I follow him on Flickr! ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/ ). Also in a twitter thread last night, Chris Milner suggested the GCR will still provide special access for the railway press - as I imagine many organisations do.

    This is interesting as their statement makes it sound like the decision was forced on the board by external forces, granted such evidence may well have strongly influenced those bodies. But a bit of a shame as the person who asked them to move has done the right thing in reporting the individual at fault to the railway, so they can take action against that person. To be fair I'm not sure how easy enforcing a ban on a specific 'vest number' would be, certainly on gala days I don't believe the station master is checking every number that signs on in the book.

    It's a shame the scheme has come to an end, but I don't share any sense of entitlement that others may have. Access to the lineside purely for photography or videos is a privilege, the railway felt they had to take the decision to rescind that privilege and so I respect that decision. Not criticising anyone who won't be renewing their membership of the railway, it's fair enough that if you only had it for the permit then there's no reason to renew. No doubt this will have an impact to revenue coming to the railway but I think it will be small one, it may not seem like it on gala days but the vast majority of visitors are on the trains/stations and not in orange!

    I got the lineside pass this year having been a member of FoGCML for a few years already, primarily to get access to places you can't otherwise like Swithland Sidings. I admit I was surprised that they issue permits to anyone and everyone who could fill out the form and pay the money with no further induction etc. Thought to myself that it wouldn't last forever and so it has come to pass. Well I'm glad it happened rather than not at all.
     
  20. Andy Louch

    Andy Louch Member

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    Yes, I agree with your post. You are quite right, the main objective must be to take best action to reduce the likelihood of an incident and, as you note, to try to defend the practice of allowing access even given the conditions imposed would not be considered reasonable or practicable in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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