West Somerset Railway General Discussion

25% more if the donor is a taxpayer and the collection is for a charity...


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Presumably (in the WSR case) only if collected on behalf of the WSRA or WSSRT - it wasn't clear in @Robin Moira White's photo precisely on whose behalf the collection was being made (nor what it would support - I'm always more generous with donations that have a specific target and identified benefit, rather than a general "help our appeal".)

The Bluebell collected on trains (using actual collectors rather than leaving envelopes) during the push to clear Imberhorne Tip, and it was very successful - I believe somewhere in the region of 1/4 million pounds collected in about 3 or 4 years. However, since then we haven't raised funds that way; I think there is a desire to avoid "donation fatigue", particularly in targeting passengers who have already paid to ride on the railway. A collecting jar by a buffet counter does seem like a good one and I suspect a large number of people will essentially dump whatever change you give them straight into it. Many high street shops and cafes do similar.

Tom

 

It depends what the purpose of the crossing is. If it's to gain access to the station, and there's an alternative route that isn't too much of a detour, then you wouldn't need any access from the path to be open when the site is unmanned anyway, just a sign that tells people how to enter the station when the gate is locked.

Incidentally, if this path is anything like the Bristol-Bath cycle path, only a small proportion of its traffic will want to detour into Washford station. That cycle path manages to have the main route of the path itself cross a heritage railway on an unmanned level crossing, with a busier train service frequency on operating days than the WSR, and I would imagine a far, far busier cycle path.

@Big Al mentioned the ECML upthread - some crossings on there are not only 125mph but have no boarding or anything to help users over the line; just a stile with a warning sign in each fence, after which you are expected to make your own way across the ballast, sleepers and rails without any boards and without tripping. I'm not suggesting you do that - it would be completely unacceptable for a new installation - but it should put the relative risks of crossing the WSR into perspective.

 

The original white envelope is distributed on trains by the WSR plc and the money donated thereby is retained by them. I do not have figures for what is collected. The WSR plc do not qualify for gift aid. Donations run through the two charities - the WSSRT and WSRA do. The potential efficiencies of running fundraising through the charities is well recognised, we just need to do something about it!

Robin

 

So if the funding was targeted specifically towards 4561/4110/7821 with a gift aid option perhaps more would be raised? Its not at all clear currently just where this money actually goes.

( I know some will say why direct it to the locos but those are probably the "target" towards which the greatest number of folk would donate?)

 

In my view yes - an appeal with a specific objective will always be more successful than one that seemingly has no direct purpose. The sample Robin showed seems particularly badly worded in that respect, giving no indication of how a donation might be used or why, having paid a fare, more money was needed. I know as enthusiasts we tend to have a better than normal understanding that on most railways there is a shortfall between fare income and what is needed to run the railway that has to be bridged somehow, but most passengers won't realise that, and the envelope did nothing to try to explain it.

Locos are clearly a popular and recognisable source for donations, though I wonder if, given that passengers are sitting in a carriage, carriages might actually be popular, since you could make a direct connection between the funds and the outcome. Imagine the leaflet said something like this:

"You are sitting in a vintage railway carriage dating from the 1950s. To maintain sufficient operational carriages, every year we have to completely overhaul a carriage like this from the ground up, including

- overhauling the wheels, brakes, couplings and structure of the carriage to ensure it continues to be safe to operate
- replacing all the seat coverings with individually woven material to historic designs
- repairing and revarnishing all the woodwork inside the carriage
- giving it a thorough repaint involving up to 10 layers of paint and varnish, all carefully applied by hand.

By giving your spare change, you can help ensure that sixty year old carriages like this one are ready to continue in service for another sixty years, giving pleasure to young and old for generations to come."​

Probably rather more effective than "your small change can make a big difference to this railway".

Of course, if you do that, you have a moral (and conceivably legal) duty to ensure the money is spent on specifically what it was raised for, but in practical terms it is very unlikely that that would be problematic. As has been noted, doing it through a charity at least opens up the possibility of reclaiming gift aid, though I suspect for on train donations, the yield would be less than you would expect through more structured means, if for no other reason than people might not have a pen and maybe don't want to spend time on a train filling in the necessary forms!

Tom

 

As I understand it, the crossing is an "accommodation crossing" (or "occupation crossing") to the fields although not used by the occupier some time now. It has never been a right of way for the general public. Thus the gates may be locked to ensure the crossing is only used by those who are entitled to do so. The Down side gate is used to gain access to the platform by wheelchair users and does not require crossing the running line or the yard (the normal access from the public road to the platform is a flight of steps).

I have used several of those ECML crossings over the years, and it is not a good experience for the user or the driver. I would not cross one of those with a wheelchair. And being hit by a train travelling at 25mph will kill you just as effectively as one at 125mph.

That said, these are my own thoughts on the situation at Washford. I do not know what the WSR itself thinks about allowing people to cross the lines at Washford.

Steve

 

Here's the ORR's view on new level crossings:-
"other than in exceptional circumstances, no new level crossings on any railway therefore creating no new risks"

http://orr.gov.uk/rail/health-and-s...safety/level-crossings/level-crossings-policy

 

Well the 'railway' have done their bit ...... after 5 years.

 

Well the good news is that the WSR has a new Chairman with new ideas who is fully supported by the WSR charities.

So much is possible with clear vision and co-operative working between all parties, I am sure the new Chairman will make this happen.

There is plenty of practices from other railways, locomotive groups and charities that can be brought to bear on the WSR to advantage.

Jeff Price

 

I'm fairly sure I have been on a railway that uses donation envelopes with almost exactly that wording for funding stock restoration; but, annoyingly, I can't at all recall where. Maybe the South Devon?

The Ffestiniog was doing an envelope campaign for the Welsh Pony overhaul fund recently; I am not sure if they have done them previously.

 

I’d love to see some examples from elsewhere, if folk could snap them.

Robin

 

An alternative way to donate I saw this year was at a Pickering station, where they had a poster for their current appeal, where below it you could donate by card contactless from £5, in multiples of £5 up to £30. It was very easy to use.

 

That seems a very good idea. Admittedly it would be most unlikely a system to qualify for gift aid, however the spontaneity of it probably would be an equalizer in cash received terms. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

Not sure I understand that. The point about qualifying for gift aid is (1) who is asking (a charity) and (2) do you comply with the Gift Aid rules (briefly, has to be a donation rather than payment for a service; your money; not on behalf of anyone else and you have to paid at least that much tax in the year). The mechanism by which a donation is made is irrelevant. There's an appeal that I periodically donate to by mobile phone, and it allows Gift Aid to be redeemed on the donation.

Tom

 

The recovery of Gift Aid requires the don

The recovery of Gift Aid requires the donor to complete and sign a declaration; not impossible with envelopes but a bit of a nightmare for the administration of it. There is the small donations scheme but this is limited to £2,000/annum. Whilst everything counts, if you are looking at a lot of donations by envelope collection you will soon outstrip that scheme.

 

Tom, however you pay, you must, at some point, have made a declaration and have been allocated a GAD number by the Charity you support. HMRC are very strict with gift aid - well they are in the case of the charity for which I am a responsible gift aid administrator.
I presume the charity you subscribe to send you details each year of you payments. Only then would you know that your donations were gift aided and allow you to make a check, if you chose to, of your payments.

 

I’m wondering how the admin of that works. The specific example I was thinking of was via Justtextgiving; you make your donation by text message, after which you get sent a URL to a form to fill in to make the Gift Aid declaration. Everything happens online (and specifically in that case free of transaction charges, because Vodafone cover them, no doubt running the whole service as a Corporate Social Responsibility initiative).

For other donations, by cheque or bank transfer, the charity has donor records including a signed Gift Aid form. I must admit that I’ve never bothered to ask any of the four charities I regularly donate to for yearly records, and I take it on trust that they administer correctly.

I agree that an envelope scheme potentially adds a lot of admin to the charity for small donations; I suspect it also adds s lot of admin to the donor (!) which they may not be minded to do while enjoying a train ride, hence my earlier comment that it would be likely the recovered GA would be somewhat below the theoretically possible maximum.

Tom

 

I am quite happy to put my small change into a donations envelope - but there is absolutely no way that I would put my Credit Card details - especially including the 3 digit security code from the reverse of the card - on an envelope left around for random scammers to harvest said details.

In the event that you were scammed, I doubt that you'd get any recompense as the card issuer would (justifiably) claim that you'd been negligent.

I'm astonished that KESR should be promoting this.

 

Tom, I follow you here. I think the scheme mentioned at Pickering would not be a gift aided donation as it is a spontaneous one. The point I was suggesting is that whilst the gift aid content is probably lost (assuming no declaration is made when donating) it would on balance, as far as the railway is concerned, benefit by getting a spontaneous donation. Everyone is a winner so to speak.
I am sure many of us would be interested to know how the Pickering arrangement works.