LSWR T3 563

I suspect telling folks on this forum to lay off the W.I.B.N., is a bit like trying to get a straight answer out of a politician, your just not gonna get anywhere Paul!

Though I'd agree certainly we need to be realistic about all this, and we won't have much an aspiration here if 563 doesn't return to steam after all. I'm personally pretty confident it will happen, but we just don't know for certain as yet. So one thing at a time I'd say is the best policy at the moment.

I'd agree this would be the best course of action to take if we're really serious about getting 563 up and running again, with a rake of Ironclads, at least two of them. It would surely tick all the right boxes for lottery funding, certainly since the MHR achieved this not that long ago. And if the MHR can do this with their Merchant Navy and a pair of Bullied carriages (neither are necessarily that unique or indeed rare), then surely it's a no brainer to give the same opportunity to 563 and a couple Ironclad, both being so distinctive and a great asset historically if and when complete.

After that you could even go further, seek out funding a for one or two more to be restored, as the Swanage Railway tend to run 4 couch sets more often then not anyway. A number of carriages I reckon 563 and indeed the T9 or M7 could handle easily.

 

5 coach rake is the norm at Swanage. Days they run a 4 coach I go out to photograph as it is different from the norm.

 

Ah I see, my bad wasn't aware of that, most footage I had seen made it seem like 4 coach rakes were the norm. Good to know now otherwise anyway.

 

Couldn't agree more. One thing the "Let's ask the lottery" brigade have got to remember as well is that that the Lottery is rather borassic at present. Financing carriages as well as a locomotive may just be too much.

PH

 

Nobody is saying this should all be one party though, and as the recent TV program has demonstrated rather expertly, there's more than one way of skinning a cat!

We need dreamers and ideas men and women in railway preservation more than ever. We cannot look to stand still and bemoan that things are not possible. We need to make them possible.

I absolutely accept there will be limits to everything but we cannot sit on our laurels and not try. If railway preservation had stuck to the rigid, puritan viewpoints of some of our Nat Pres members then we frankly would be a laughing stock as a movement. As it is we have much to be proud of and many good examples to follow to make things happen.

 

If railway preservation had followed the advice of some on the forum there would be no railways preserved. Why would you bother to restore railways in North Wales, or in Shropshire, or even in the Isle of Wight. I am pretty sure that none of these projects began with a cost-benefit analysis.

Could you imagine Paul's reaction if the Ffestiniog announced it was building a deviation around its flooded route...

There would be no Duke of Gloucester, Tornado etc etc.

Every single project has at its heart 'wouldn't it be nice'.

To paraphrase someone more famous.

Really, this is just the usual vain self-satisfied sneering nonsense from Paul. In short, more attention seeking trolling.

What Paul doesn't get or refuses to understand is that not everyone wants to 'play trains' some people want a challenge - now maybe that is restoring a former hen house to its Edwardian glory, maybe it is helping to lay track, some of us may choose to support projects financially.

I have to admit that I do find it ironic that 'Mr Authenticity' is against people saying 'wouldn't it be nice to have an authentic train behind the T3'. Maybe he'd prefer it to run with some fourth hand Virgin or Arriva Mk2s.

 

As far as the National Lottery is concerned I believe they do not have quite as much money to donate as they once had. There are more lotteries now - some of which seem more essential in their direction to many punters. I do not subscribe to any lottery but I wonder if more money is spent on tickets, or is it much the same giving smaller slices to the cake?
On line betting has increased dramatically - if the tv ads are any guide.
Preservationists - of whatever form - are generous by and large, however, whilst we have become accustomed to a culture of the 'State or someone else will provide' maybe folk need to find ways of raising funding themselves if they wish to see their favourite projects up and running. The preservation movement has done well out of lottery handouts but the future may not be so lucrative.

 

No-one is "bemoaning" anything, just saying "Think", particularly where Lottery funding is concerned. One organisation who thought they were going to get a substantial grant suddenly found they weren't going to. The A1 Locomotive Trust could well be a better pointer to the future but, of course, the Lottery may well bounce back.

One sure way of being a laughing stock is to promise all sorts of things with absolutely no resources or ability to acquire them.

PH

 

I don't see anyone "promising" anything, merely a discussion of what's available, what's possible and a potential way of doing it. Yes, the lottery has less money than it used to, but it still has some and given the precedent set with the 35005 project this proposal reflects quite well. If other funding is available then great. If it's not, well, it won't happen, but at least we'll have tried.

 

Can we see a picture of both kind of trains.?
I have thought 563 is best looking UK locomotive since 1971 where I saw it in a former tram garage somewhere in London.
I have just bougth four books for studying Raven B16 and prices was between 2 and 7 £.
This indicates that Real knowledgable steam connosaires is a waning breed.
On the Picture from Simon one can se a coach and if the section closest to locomotive is occupied by a 2.8 meter sphere it can contain steam enough to drive a 400 tons train ca 34 km at 30 km per hour.
I migth even be able to see it alive.
Locomotive and me.
Boiler can be restored in paralel..

 

Hi Paul,

'Calbourne' W24 ex LSWR O2 would not be running today were it not for Heritage Lottery funding for her last substantial boiler overhaul which was almost a complete replacement boiler. Given that the T3 was selected for preservation as early as 1948, and no O2 was selected at any time by any official body, there is an argument to be made that the T3 is equally if not more deserving of Heritage Lottery funding.

Cheers,
Julian

 

Have just picked up on this conversation after a few days off the forum, so here are my thoughts:

1. It is so very heartening to hear so many people talking about carriage restoration, and particularly the desirability of restoring pre-grouping coaches to match a pre-grouping engine. To read some of the railway magazines you would think that if it isn't a locomotive, and it isn't painted BR black, then it can't possibly be interesting.

2. It would be fantastic to see some Ironclads running again and I applaud Mogul's initiative in keeping track of them. But equally, Paul Hitch is right that they still relatively modern compared to the locomotive. It occurs to me that the Bluebell have another two semi-elliptical roofed coaches in store, as well as 1520 already running; and Quainton has a matching four-wheel van. It occurs to me that restoring the "Bluebell two" might be a quicker way to get a really authentic LSWR train up and running. Admittedly it wouldn't be an everyday option, but even if 563 and the van could just visit the Bluebell once a year, it would be well worth it.

3. As well as the Ironclads there are a surprising number of older six-wheel LSWR bodies out there. Admittedly most of them are currently either in use as holiday homes or earmarked for conversion to such, but if we could keep track of them as Mogul is doing for the Ironclads then who knows what may become available in future?

4. Maybe what we really need is an "LSWR coach society" to co-ordinate preservation and restoration efforts across different railways. Facebook group anyone?

 

The same could be said of Calbourne (built 1891) and the IOWSRs bogie coaches (mostly dating from 1911 to 1924). It doesn’t mean it’s not historically accurate to run them together.

 

On this we agree.

 

Ultimately railway preservation has always cut the cloth to meet the financial climate of the time. This again shows the wilful ignorance of Paul. On the one hand he complains about lack of authenticity but the reason why railways have certain locos and certain coaches is because that was what they could afford at that time, I am quite sure that if more money had been available then the MHR, GWSR etc would have loved to have invested in line authentic rolling stock and locomotives but as it was at the time what could be afforded was Cadbury no.1 and mk1s.

The scene has been through individuals to groups of friends who bought a loco or carriage and ran it on the line, to groups, to lines buying stock. There are a lot of different approaches to funding as well, whether that is hunting down individual donor, schemes like the A1LST, give £10a month schemes etc etc, Bridges to Broadway and so on.

It isn’t as if there was nothing before the lottery and nothing after.

Less money will mean projects will take longer, I don’t think anyone in preservation is unaware that nothing is possible without money and people.

 

Don't disagree with you, but if the Lottery is having difficulties in finding enough cash to meet existing commitments?

Paul

 

Indeed they are, and that should be applauded, not belittled as some seem wont to do. While it is undoubtedly true that it is mums and dads and coach parties that by and large pay the revenue costs in preservation, it is largely enthusiasts who pay the capital costs - and restoration of an LSWR train will require significant amounts of capital, if it is to happen at all. Endless denigration of enthusiasts as “gricers” seems wilfully misguided.

It’s always struck me that, amongst the Southern companies the LSWR has fared well in both locomotives and lines, it has done less well in carriage preservation. While it is relatively trivial to find examples of LCDR, SECR and LBSCR carriages in routine operation on several railways, there is only a single operational LSWR carriage anywhere in the country. Maybe 563 could be a catalyst to change that.

Tom

 

The swanage railway already has several LSWR coach bodies - perhaps they could consider restoring them? Of course, the other option which I think is under dicussed is to build replica coaches, which is what the L&B is effectively doing. That way, you can choose what you want to a degree.

 

I'd wholeheartedly agree with you on both points Tom, the willpower and ambitions of those who actively support the heritage railway movement should not be underestimated, for time and time again such people have defied the odds and made impossible, possible. If we really set our mind on something, there's no telling what limits our movement has.

I would agree too that LSWR is rather badly represented coaching wise, so we can only hope 563 does spark a serious interest to get such examples restored and running again.

 

There's nothing to stop anyone building one from scratch is there?....... apart from money & willingness.....

We're doing it with loco's so why not coaches?

Hell, they've got to be cheaper & quicker!