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GWSR Broadway Developments

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Breva, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. 45045

    45045 New Member

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    I am surprised that no preserved railway has not volunteered to help network rail develop the fibre optic detection system. At the moment it seems to be very sensitive and picks up too much background noise, so needs time to be tuned to detect the threats such as bridge strikes, cable theft etc. I would have thought that a railway not in continual use would be a good way for the company to develop the software so it can be used on mainline railways. I have seen the system used to be very effective (on non railway applications), once it has been tuned to the environment it is used in. Unfortunately it will not stop a bridge strike, but wold at least be able to activate cameras to catch the aftermath.
     
  2. PaulK

    PaulK New Member

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    At the end of the day there should be overheight vehicle Enforcement cameras installed by the local roads policing unit and the law properly enforced.
     
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  3. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Further up the line, on the approaches to Birmingham (yes, I know there is still a gap ;)) at Shirley there is a very low bridge which is on a single deck route (formerly Midland Red). Now and again a corporation bus would try a detour, which incidentally took it beyond the city boundary, to nearby termini. The result was a stuck double decker with most of its roof crushed. It has happened more recently under the new West Mids operations as well.
    As it is said "expect the unexpected" :eek:
     
  4. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    With reference to Grantham bridges, the existence of a combination such precautions does not prevent the bashes. I’ve no reason to suspect Broadway would be any better, unless and until public policy changes such that for a driver to hit a bridge with a restriction lower than the known height of the vehicle is a mandatory ban from driving, lifetime for PCV and HGV, significant for cars.

    Edit: having seen Greenway’s post about SatNavs, I would also make referencing the use of satnav an exacerbating factor, as proving that the driver was not observing the road as they ought.

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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  5. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    You are right about the beams; I used to live in Orpington and lorries still ran the bridge.


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  6. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    The bridge is just north of Shirley on Colebrook Road

    upload_2018-6-28_21-48-50.png


    image from google maps but you will note the steel protection beam

    upload_2018-6-28_21-50-46.png

    on both sides
     
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  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't see that anyone would crash deliberately; therefore crashes must occur through inattention. So anything that slows a driver down must be a benefit, by virtue of giving more time on the approach to the bridge, and therefore reducing the likelihood of inattention turning into an actual crash. I can't see that bigger penalties would be a deterrent from something that no right-minded driver would deliberately take a risk on.

    (The fact that at lower speed, if you do have a crash it will have less severity on the bridge structure by virtue of lower speed is an incidental bonus).

    Which makes the point: beams reduce the impact(*) of a bridge strike, but do nothing to reduce the likelihood. The best risk management strategy must be to try to prevent strikes occurring in the first place. Adding a beam feels like a secondary approach: worth having to protect the bridge but it isn't likely to reduce the incidence of bridge strikes. A bit like fitting an air bag to a car: it will reduce the severity of a crash, but won't stop you having the crash in the first place.

    (*) Impact in the risk management sense, i.e. risk score = likelihood * impact.

    Tom
     
  8. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Whereas one might expect that measures such as traffic calming bumps or traffic lights would reduce the likelihood. There ought to be some statistics for frequencies of strikes on particular bridges before and after such measures have been put in place.
     
  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    One thing I can't understand with these over size vehicle bars, and its this, yes they protect the bridge from strikes, but why are they not located away from the bridge so that the vehicle is prevented from blocking the road under the bridge or being trapped between bar and bridge? if the bars were say a few yards ahead then any vehicle that strikes the bar, would be halted before the bridge so removing the problem of vehicles betting wedged between the overhead protection and the bridge deck.
     
  10. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Re Orpington, I was referring to the light beams triggering signs, not bridge beams.

    More generally, the number of such incidents suggests more than just inattention by drivers, but collectively, something more akin to wilful disregard.

    My wife’s experience with a lorry driver taking a high, delicate, load reinforces this. The manufacturer had specified a low bed but the haulier had sent a normal trailer. Once loaded, the cargo was within an inch of the normal highway height limit. The driver was all for just going, the company sending the load insisted on the booked trailer being used because they weren’t prepared to take the risk of the load hitting a “normal” bridge as (a) it would cause them and their customer problems, and (b), more important, the impact of a strike would be explosive and place other drivers at real risk.


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  11. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    How much more are they going to cost?


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  12. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    So did I! You have my deepest sympathy. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  13. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

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    An easy answer. They are fitted to the structure as it is easy, cheap and doesn't require additional land and planning. To place them further away from the bridge would require land to be purchased and then a considerable structure built to be able to take an impact without collapsing and causing additional damage, injury or worse. Many bridges are in suburban areas where land is not only at a premium but in many cases taken up by other properties. Private properties with owners who would have a large structure built outside their window or even on their property. Who would then be liable for their maintenance and upkeep? Who will pay for them? Network Rail do not own all bridges on the big railway so there could be many different organisations installing and maintaining them.

    As for vehicles being wedged between the protection beam and the deck, I have not witnessed this on any of the many bridge strikes I have attended. Usually the beam does its job by either preventing the vehicle from proceeding beyond it, ripping the top off the vehicle off or crushing it down thus lowering its overall height or as in the case of the one I posted earlier, tipping the vehicle over. Which ever happens, the bridge structure is protected and can be returned to normal operation quickly with usually no repair or at worst, minimal. If the vehicle struck a similar structure away from the bridge then all that happens is the road is blocked further down the road. What difference does it make where its blocked? It's still blocked.

    Where they are, they are easier and cheaper to install and maintain, and do a good job. As Tom quite rightly points out, they are there purely as a protection of the structure. They are the last line of defence following height signs and over height flashing warning signs. If a driver chooses to ignore these and ends up damaging his vehicle, blocking the road, getting penalised by the boys in blue and (as happens on many occasions) loses his/her job then they have no one else to blame except themselves.
     
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  14. Breva

    Breva Well-Known Member

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    After attending the plc agm yesterday, I heard a smidgin more detail about what is proposed. It's a square beam, filled with concrete. There won't be a camera system in the first instance. They are very expensive and we want to see how the beam performs before committing to the second cost stage. Next to the camera system's capital cost, there are also annual maintenance costs to consider.

    Apparently in NR's list of top hit bridges ours is No. 15! We manage to follow up about 3/5ths of the villains, but as far as we know no prosecutions were attempted by the law.
     
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  15. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I find it very hard to believe that a camera (even with an associated detection system to trigger it) costs more than a dirty great lump of steel and concrete. You could even dispense with the detection system and just have the camera take a shot every (say) one second and store them on an appropriate memory card. Then, when there is a strike, you copy the picture(s) from the relevant time.

    If the police don't bring a prosecution, why not NR?
     
  16. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

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    I've probably come into this conversation a bit late but are we saying that the bridge in Broadway is still NR owned? If it is then surely after every strike it would need to be inspected by a NR appointed BSN or BSE? Does this happen? As for taking legal action I cannot comment on this bridge but do know that they do try to seek remuneration from insurance companies for delays and damage for bridges on the big railway.
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But surely the point is to reduce the likelihood of a strike in the first place, or failing that, reduce the severity. A camera does neither. Having the evidence available with which to launch a rather uncertain prosecution is probably of scant consolation if you have to cancel a service while repairs are carried out after a bridge strike.

    Ultimately you need defence in-depth. But the priories surely have to be:
    1. Reduce the probability of a strike in the first place (warning signs, traffic calming etc)
    2. Reduce the effect of a strike (crash beams, also traffic calming etc)
    3. Recover any compensation available (cameras etc)
    in that order.

    Tom
     
  18. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Sorry, misunderstanding. I was replying to a post which referred to both strikes to the Broadway bridge and strikes to NR bridges, and wondering why NR don't prosecute when it's one of theirs,
     
  19. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

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    Prosecuting would come from the police. NE would seek remuneration from the insurance company and do try.

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  20. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I agree about the order of priority, but I was expressing surprise that a camera would cost more than the beam. Security cameras for home use can be had for very modest prices, and I would think that one of those could be run on battery power and the battery only need to be changed every few days. Possibly when a vehicle hits the beam the beam will sustain little or no damage, so there will be no need to pursue the driver.
     

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