If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    there we went
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I’ve directed them to the Edward Thompson thread. Happy to take questions via pm or on there. No need to make it bigger than it is.
     
  3. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    283
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The thread is half-named for proposed new-locomotive builds and it would interest me to race a Thomson A2/3 against two Peppercorn pacifics and see if the latters were needed.
    Reading my prophet Cox the locomotives from Thomson/LNER did not come second best during BR Exchange trials
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  4. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If you don't want to make it a big thing, stop pushing your views at every opportunity.

    Have you read "LNER pacifics remembered" edited by P Townend? Try ch 13.

    Those would be the B1s. Arguably the best Thompson locomotives? ;)
     
  5. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The hypocrisy of this. Others have foisted opinions on the Thompson debate for decades.

    Some incredible untruths, half truths and outright lies have been spun on the behalf of a man who has not been with us since 1941.

    Of course we should challenge such views where they exist. Otherwise we’re not responding to better and more informed information.

    I have read Peter Townends books and written to him at length on the subject.

    To say that the issue of the Thompson Pacifics is thorny and complicated is an understatement.

    But the basic fact is that they were very capable machines. Bottom line.

    I completely agree. Dare I say - maybe there’s an argument for the LNERs most useful locomotive too?
     
    Copper-capped and MellishR like this.
  6. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Hypocracy eh? You are the one who persists in sticking your provocative point of view forward at every opportunity, and adding "arguably" as a get out for when someone calls you out, then retreating to another thread in high dudgeon. And now suddenly "it's thorny and complicated" I'll just bet it is.

    I have yet to read any comments or reports from those who used the Thompson pacifics which could be even vaguely interpreted as "one of the LNER's best pacifics" , certainly not P Townend. So you wrote to him did you? And did he tell you how wonderful they were? Pity he didn't see fit to put such views into print - he certainly had enough opportunity. As for the rest of the commentators, nor did they - so they're all liars and cheats? it seems you think so - Pity they aren't here to defend themselves either.

    You remind me of the apocryphal mother watching her son at his passing out parade "Oh look! everyone is out of step except for my Jonny!"
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Time for a shuffle off to the Thompson thread I think...
     
  8. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    869
    Likes Received:
    2,354
    I'll shuffle off and read the Thompson thread (my interests are mostly SR.) I suppose we'll have to get A1 SLT to build an A2/3 after the V4 (and K3?) to settle this. To me (from a purely asthetic perspective) Thompson's A2s look all wrong to me.
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  9. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I hope you have plenty of time on your hands.
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  10. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    869
    Likes Received:
    2,354
    85 pages?! I think I'll pass.
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I don’t need to defend myself. My record speaks for itself. I can only call it as it is: a great many people, mostly it seems timekeepers and enthusiasts, feel the need to play up the issues and play down the positive aspects of Thompsons work.

    Case in point: Peter Townend actually wrote quite well on the A2/3s and I was interested to hear more of his views, hence I wrote to him. He was an absolute gentleman and his views were very balanced.

    You quoted one particular tome of his which gives an account of an A2/3 being swapped for a top shed A4 (due to maintenance issues on that class at that time) and a particular driver getting quite irate at this switch. After being persuaded to try the engine, the driver came back pleased as he stated it was a very good engine, and could he have it all week! ;)

    F24A3174-1BB0-4D14-A5B2-07059BA60B25.jpeg

    I have come across a great many similar stories in my research and almost always in regards to Great Northern and the A2/3 class.

    I called it “one of the LNERs best Pacifics” because it is not unfair to suggest that the A2/3 was a good locomotive; better than the single chimney Pacific locomotives in most respects and outshone by the excellence of the Peppercorn A1.

    The double chimneys transformed the single chimney LNER Pacifics later in life, I think we all agree, changing that view somewhat.

    Even if they were to be found poorer than the A1s, A4s and A3s, that is still no disgrace given the excellence of their company.

    I’m happy to continue this by PM or by email or in the Thompson thread: I rather think I have made my points clear.
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Then you can have no arguments that we have not tried to inform you better.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In my defence Jim, I did try several times to do just that.
     
    MellishR and Copper-capped like this.
  14. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    869
    Likes Received:
    2,354
    Umm.... this is a mite aggressive for a hobby. Your post above that slots the A2/3s between single chimney A3s and double chimney A3s / A4s and Peppercorn A1s is much more informative and chimes with everything I've read.
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I apologise: it was not meant aggressively, but simply matter of fact. I have PM’d you and hope you take the PM in the friendly manner intended.
     
    Tobbes likes this.
  16. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    918
    Likes Received:
    428
    I didn't read that comment as aggressive, mearly final.
     
  17. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Indeed, I have seen that and consider one swallow does not make a summer. A pity all those people you have spoken to didn't pipe up some time earlier in the last 60 years or so - or were they afraid of being excommunicated...

    It has never been my contention that all the A2/3 locos were totally useless, just that they were never as good on average as the equivalent Peppercorn or Gresley loco (with double kylchap) they were certainly the best of the Thompson pacifics, but not with the best of the LNER pacifics. As to continuing this on a different thread, perhaps you could ask the mods to transfer the relevant posts.

    Well, there's the Peppercorn A2 to consider as well - I'd say the double chimney variant was above the A2/3 whilst the single chimney version was below it, mainly on steaming qualities provided by the double Kylchap; but otherwiseI'd tend to agree.
     
  18. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh enough already. Could you please stop trolling Mr Martin in this thread and take this to the Thompson one.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,067
    Likes Received:
    20,775
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Your wish is our command....
     
    Jimc, MarkinDurham and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  20. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thanks Al

    Oi! hang on a minute - Mr Martin makes a statement that something is arguably so and gets an argument. What was he actually expecting. Why exactly should the rest of us keep quiet if we disagree with his statement?
     

Share This Page