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Sugar Loaf Mountaineer : 7/07/18 - now 23/09/18

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Bulleid Pacific, May 1, 2018.

  1. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    As Carmarthen was part of my former stamping ground, the Queen's Hotel was fairly good. The Spoons is not too far from there on King Street. All about 10 minutes from the station, but there is some hill climbing involved.
     
  2. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    Just booked on this.

    Does anyone know of an available gradient profile for this route? Ian Allan does not oblige south of Craven Arms.

    Many thanks

    Peter in Manchester, where it has just started raining after a glorious weekend
    http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/
     
  3. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Someone should have it, but it's a hard one to get hold of, unless you visit one of the signal boxes along the route. I think the main climb of Sugar Loaf is 1/60 possibly both directions, but no idea where the climb starts.
     
  4. Where's Mazeppa?

    Where's Mazeppa? Member

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    Peter,

    The route notes in RTC's Central Wales Explorer brochure for the tour it operated on 12th May 2012 with the Riley Fives includes a handy gradient profile of the entire route from Llandeilo Junction to Craven Arms. That's the good news. The bad news is that in reproducing four sectional gradient profiles spread in landscape format across just two A5 pages, some of the detail (i.e the 1 in xx bit) is lost even with a fairly strong magnifying glass along some sections.

    The Sugar Loaf section is possibly the clearest in terms of the clarity of the digits reproduced in the booklet. Southbound, the ascent to Sugar Loaf Tunnel commences at Llanwrtyd, with a constantly rising grade of 1 in 80 for roughly two and three quarter miles commencing at or about MP 48.0 (the first half mile may be slightly steeper - can't quite decipher this) and concluding about one quarter mile north of the north portal of Sugar Loaf Tunnel. Thence the southbound gradient is 1 in 70 down for about three quarters of a mile (to just inside the south portal of the 1000 yard tunnel) and then 1 in 80 down for the subsequent four-and-a-half miles to MP 56.0 (there is an underbridge -111 - here as a reference point).

    The other really notable climb in the southbound direction is the four miles at 1 in 60 from Milepost 14 and on through Knucklas and over Knucklas Viaduct to MP 18, just north of the north portal of Llangynllo Tunnel. Northbound, there is a two-and-three-quarter mile climb at 1 in 70 (the RTC booklet says 1 in 74) from just north of Builth Road station (about MP 37.5) to roughly MP 34.75. And also a 1 and a half mile climb at 1 in 90 from MP 23 through Llanbister Road (21m 57c) to MP 21.5.

    This brief summary doesn't really do justice to the intensely topographical nature of the Central Wales line all along its line of route - it just highlights the steeper and longer gradients. Consulting the Railway Performance Society database to see what else might be available, the paucity of gradient information for the Central Wales line is acknowledged, but reference is made to a "good summary" in the May/ June 1964 editions of the Railway Magazine, which maybe someone can lay their hands on.

    Hope this helps, at least as a start point, for your research into this. If I can help any more, I will, (please PM) but I don't have the means to scan the gradient information to transmit to you in that form.
     
    Sean Emmett and LMarsh1987 like this.
  5. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    Hi WM,

    Thanks for the trouble you have taken to identify a source and to reproduce the main highlights of the line from a steam point of view. I did it over thirty years ago in a first generation DMU but I'm sure steam both ways will make it an unforgettable experience.

    The leads you have given me should also be a great help, thanks.

    Peter in Manchester, where after afternoon rain we are back with evening sunshine
    http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  6. bobsungod

    bobsungod Member

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    Gradient profiles for central wales attached if it works
     

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  7. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    Many thanks indeed Bob, it is great to have those.

    Maybe we shall see some memorable pictures from you that day? You will certainly see a report of my ride over the switchback in beautiful scenery.

    Cheers, and once again thanks very much.

    Peter on a damp Manchester evening at the end of summer
    http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/
     
  8. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Had this vague memory of doing an anniversary of the Central Wales line before with 44767, George Stephenson, steam one way. Actually found the info and it was the 125th Anniversary of the Central Wales Line on the 23rd May 1993. It was indeed one way steam from Shrewsbury to Carmarthen with the ultimate hill climber, 44767. Called The Heart of Wales Explorer.

    The 'Brochure' was old school to say the least; 2 double sided sheets of photocopied A4. Have attached all parts out of interest.

    On P1, the Welcome Page, it's interesting to note the warning: PLEASE DO NOT LEAN OUT OF THE WINDOWS!! On the back was the timing sheet. The second sheet has a brief history of the line with the same gradient profiles Bob posted on the back.

    The times are interesting - 1043 off Shrewsbury, arriving in Carmarthen at 1621.

    The return train, The Central Wales Anniversary Limited was on the 6th June, double headed from Carmarthen to Shrewsbury by 80079+44767.
     

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    Last edited: May 10, 2018
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  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    So as I said in #39, with further evidence above of historical times suggesting 5.5/6 hours to Carmarthen, the Pathfinder outline times do look rather ambitious. Service trains from Carmarthen to Manchester take 4 hours to get to Shrewsbury via Newport. There's a bit of me that wonders whether this may turn into a 'steam one way only' trip at the last minute once Network Rail gets to try and path it in the same day.

    I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong.
     
  10. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    What about a return via Abergavenny ?
     
  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    That's the route I am talking about....:)
     
  12. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Sorry, I thought you meant the possibility of the return leg by diesel. I would prefer to depart earlier than the provisional times suggest. Sugar Loaf on the return looks grueling and would be a shame if we didn't get it.
     
  13. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    2968 almost came to grief just north of Cynghordy Viaduct where there's a very tight left curve. The northbound climb is much tougher than the southbound and it would be a huge shame if it's not done. I wonder if Arriva are looking to make it as much of a non-stop run as is possible?
     
  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the return may be a) diesel and b) via Newport. I hope not for those who have booked but we now have three previous examples of steam southbound over the Heart of Wales where the provisional times for this trip don't stack up. All can be solved by starting and finishing in the dark, I guess, but it just looks like a mission to me if you are boarding at Birmingham. However this is Pathfinder that is known for its silly o'clock scheduling.
     
  15. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Not their train Al. Arriva Trains are promoting it.
     
  16. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Then they should know better!
     
  17. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    You say Arriva are part promoting it, but I can't find any evidence of this apart from on Pathfinders tour page, which says they're sponsoring it.
     
  18. pjhliners

    pjhliners Member Friend

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    Hi Graham,

    Many thanks indeed for so generously rooting through your archives and sending me the full contents. I shall now be hugely well briefed for my journey - are you doing it? I remember those rough cyclostyled sheets we used to get - how the world has changed!

    It was good to meet you at last on the Ebor Flyer, shortly before the debacle. Hopefully we shall meet again soon in happier circumstances

    Peter at the end of another sunny day in Manchester (lucky old us!)
    http://pjhtransportpix.zenfolio.com/
     
  19. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I'd like to see some clarification on this trip by Tuesday, as at the present time It doesn't look likely to run due to the steam ban. Also, 45231 is unlikely to get a test run anytime soon. A postponement is surely the best result, and the only one I would accept.
     
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  20. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Yes, I agree it's been all rather quiet on this one.
     

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