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Ebor Flyer - A1ST and Tornado: 14/04/18

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by NathanP, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    They had the same problems when they had the boiler trouble but got over it.
     
  2. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Well-Known Member

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    bum bum!

    Sorry couldn't resist [​IMG]
     
  3. Sean Emmett

    Sean Emmett Member

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    Correct. Outputs on those severe banks have been greater than the brief 2,225 edhp I recorded on Saturday. Absolute power outputs for high speed running will be lower than those banks, but running above 75 mph will require consistently good firing/steaming and moderate/high power outputs for a long period. Marathon not a sprint etc.

    Tornado has sustained 2,100 - 2,200 edhp all the way up Stoke Bank i.e. 15 miles from Tallington, with peak outputs approaching 2,600 edhp. I will re-analyse its November 2010 run to Edinburgh, which was consistently very good throughout (apart from a brief lull leaving Newcastle), but the late Mike Notley covered it very well in Steam Railway at the time. Indeed I was part of the Notley crew of gricers/timers that filled the last few seats.

    There were quite a few posts on here yesterday (!) but there was at least one querying the performance of the 75 mph limited class 66 compared with Tornado's 90 mph schedule. I will do some number crunching, but FWIW Tornado can sustain a 75 mph average for mile after mile on the ECML. At least two of its runs were about a minute quicker Claypole - Rossington, and again over the Selby diversion, than 66106 last Saturday. OK starts are slower but cruising at 75 mph and a tad above soon gains time compared with 75mph and a tad under.

    My recent runs with Tornado have featured notably assured starts, which is really important for clearing conflicts at stations and junctions. Remember, a quarter mile at 25 mph rather than 20 mph saves more time (9s) than a whole mile at 90 mph rather than 75 mph (8s).

    I was hoping the 90 mph limit would make it easier for the crews, allowing them to run a bit more downhill within the rules, rather than reining it in as has been the case with the 75 limit, but without having to work quite so hard uphill.

    Like everyone else I used to ascertain speeds using the mileposts, and was resistant to change to using GPS. But as mileposts became less well maintained it became essential. GPS makes it much easier to time at night, or if on the non-milepost side. So I now generally time trains from the infrastructure using the RPS (Railway Performance Society) distance charts which pinpoint stations, crossings and bridges etc to work put average point-to-point average times, and the GPS to record the speed at each timing point, and any variations in between. For last Saturday my spreadsheet gives a pass to pass average from East Road to Holme Green Crossings of 89.8 mph, and on the day the GPS was showing 90 at both locations and a tad over 90 in between, but not 91.

    As a further back up I set my GPS to record at 1s intervals and have analysed the raw track log, and a reduced track log produced by halving the track points and halving again to give a 4s interval. This removes the unnatural peaks and troughs in the raw file. With the 'reduced' track log I get a max of 145.6 kmh, or 90.47 mph immediately after Holme Green* crossing.

    In summary I'm counting this as a 90 max not a 91, although my colleague sat opposite was happy with 91.

    A final thought is that those air con Mk2s did save a bit of weight compared with the usual commonwealth-bogied Mk1s, such that the tare weight of the 12 coaches (419 tons) was little more than some I have seen with load 11. If Mk1s are still an issue don't Riviera trains have any early Mk2s with opening toplights that could be used instead of the aircons?

    Like everyone else I must now await the outcome of the investigation. Hopefully we will see Tornado back before too long.

    Sean

    *correction - max speed was just after East Road Crossing
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  4. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Isn't it interesting how quick the train was recovered compared to some of the horror stories that one hears about more modern trains that fail in service. I wonder if it was because this train still uses old fashioned side buffers and screw couplings? Remember the poor Hull Trains unit that dropped its innards in the four foot north of Peterborough last year and sat there with no working on board services for several hours. Plenty of freight locos nearby then but no means of attaching them to the stricken unit. Saturday proved to be an unfortunate but well managed operation. Well done to all involved

    Peter
     
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  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Second that. We stopped at 0915. Two hours later we were on the move again and that includes the time for a diesel to be scrambled from over 30 miles away and come down to collect us. That was a phenomenally slick piece of work, presumably initiated by DBC.
     
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  6. alastair

    alastair Well-Known Member

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    Just for the record I have had similar swift and professional communication from Steam Dreams following a less complex situation, together with a not ungenerous credit against a future trip.
     
  7. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Yes Sean my GPS recorded pretty well exactly the same. We held 90 or slightly more for about one mile. I made the tare load 415 tons having converted the MK2 stock 33.5 tonnes to tons.
     
  8. CLN_WVR

    CLN_WVR Member

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    Might be a separate subject but that process intrigued me a bit as to how they quickly arrange to run a train the wrong way down a specific line? (and I guess the process for such an event would depend on if the line is dual signalled at that location)
     
  9. thickmike

    thickmike Member

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    Hi Colin, the rescue engine ran on the (correct) up line from Peterborough to, I believe, Sandy, where it reversed over an emergency crossover onto the up fast line on which we were stranded. He then reversed again, under the authorisation of the modern equivalent of a "wrong line order", towards us. Only at this stage was he travelling in the up direction on the down line. The signalman will have explicit instructions to follow and to give to the train crew, authorising them to make this wrong direction move.

    I am sure there are others on this forum who are more aware of the correct modern terminology and details.

    Mike
     
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  10. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

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    Quite a while ago, we had a similar experience with RTC, after getting stuck at Peterborough, on a late running return to Newcastle, that meant a bus back home, got half of the fare returned on the Monday.

    Does not seem to happen as often now, but a well done again to A1ST.
     
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  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    There is a statement from the A1 Trust today.

     
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  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    A case study in good communications when something goes wrong. 11/10.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  13. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

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    I would agree with all those praising the A1ST for their response. My wife is a fairly reluctant rail tour participant, but when I told her what had been said and the offer made on credit, she was very keen on booking again with them. Mind you, she thought the whole thing was really interesting as she enjoyed watching people's reactions as the news came through on the day!

    Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk
     
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  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    A postscript thought about Saturday's trip. Yes, recovery was quick and this was helped by the fact that a rescue diesel was relatively close - only thirty or so miles away. Perhaps we should also remember that this was a train running on an air brake system. Think about the same scenario had the train been running with stock that was only fitted with a vacuum brake.

    This is not a 'pop' at any main line heritage locomotives that can only run on vacuum. Neither is it to do with whether a diesel is on the back or it shadows big trips such as with the upcoming GBXI. It's much more to do with moving quickly to a situation where solely vacuum brake stock is eliminated from the system. Either that or contingency planning is routinely put in place - an option that will involve debatable actions we have already discussed ad nauseum.

    The recovery of a disabled train from the network is not something that has been thought through fully with all modern stock as @torgormaig has already mentioned but it definitely makes sense for the steam charter market to sort it out. To my mind that's more of an argument for running steam under air brake on primary routes than whether they can run at 90.
     
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  15. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

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    I think it is generally accepted that lower ECML operations have to be air brake only, for the very reason as to what happened on Saturday.

    Can you imagine the delay minutes if a Vac only thunderbird had to be scrambled, or the need for an extra shadow path, just in case.

    These edicts, from up high, are done with a purpose to minimise disruption, and in this case, have proven to be correct.

    Running by the seat of your pants, on lower ECML, now seems to be a no go, with risk minimised, and that is a good thing in my view, for the future of steam operation.
     
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  16. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Just a personal opinion but I disagree totally with the last two posts. Retro fitting air brakes to steam locos seems to be the cause of frequent problems and occasional failures that do not occur with non air fitted locos. OK it is essential if you want to run with air con stock but I personally far prefer simple reliable comfortable Mark 1 stock. Keep it simple - keep it vacuum, say I. Unlike other loco hauled stock, Mark 1, stock can be, and often is, duel braked which makes rescue easier, but given the fact that so few train can "talk to each other" on the network anyway this does not seem to be a major consideration these days. Lets not invent problems that do not really exist.

    Peter James
     
  17. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Read my post again. You have spun it away from what I was saying. Dual brake (or air brake only) is the answer. It will come. It's not about the locomotives; it's about the stock.
     
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  18. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    Yes and no. Saturday's events are an argument for requiring dual-fitted stock (and through-piped locos, perhaps?), especially on high-pressure routes such as the southern ECML. Drifting from the current topic, I know, but... The braking trials carried out after the Wooton Bassett SPAD are an argument for air-braked locos: IIRC, they suggested that the vac-braked train was unlikely to have stopped safely in the space available even if the driver had responded promptly to the distant signal, whereas the greater brake force available if the same train had been air-braked should have been sufficient to stop it safely.
     
  19. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    It`s just wonderful and amazing to see how much support ,praise and best wishes the A1 Trust receieves at their facebook page if one`s have a look. This shows clearly how much loved a steam locomotive can be to the public. Impressive!:) The A1 Trust writes that several hundreds new Convenator has signed up the last days! :eek:Fantastic! :)
    I now leave the word to the technical interested that I`m sure still have a lot to discuss.:D

    Have a nice day

    Knut
     
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  20. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed, but they could do with stopping going on about speed until they have some evidence to support the position. Not saying that what they are saying is not correct, but by keeping bringing it up just raises further questions and is a bit MRD?
     
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