West Somerset Railway General Discussion

in that case lets hope Global warming soon sees great whites and tiger sharks in the solent, that should stop them

 

The trouble with NP is that a disproportionate number of posters are lococentric gricers who presume that the majority of "normals" share their lococentricity. Frankly they don't. Someone I know, who is in a position to know, feels that the only locomotives which resonate with the general public are Flying Scotsman and Tornado. Apart from these, visiting engines are largely for gricers.

Paul H

 

Don't change the question. I wasn't commenting on visitors, just on the impact of "big chuffers" on the public when used on normal operations.

 

Oooh, the righteous indignation card.

If your argument wasn't incoherent, illogical and hypocritical attention seeking I might take it more seriously.

It is funny - you invoke 'not heritage' when it suits you but when 'not heritage' is pointed out to you, you turn around and say 'needs must'.

It doesn't take a genius to recognise that your argument has more holes than a second hand string vest.

Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass was more consistent and coherent.

 

That is one epithet too many. You are too busy being indignant to understand what is actually being said. Hence you are now on "ignore".

PH

 

From a public point of view, does a name attract? does it go back to the Thomas books? where you expect every engine to have a name ? see to me, its about spectacle, to a young child the colour isnt important its big, its hot, it smells of hot oil and sulpher its a living breathing monster, such is child imagination, and adults are also in some cases in awe of the sheer impact of an engine, from the heat of the fire, to the very basic in some cases engineering , its a throw back to a less complicated age, a named engine is easier to remember, a number just is that a number, thats why the Dartmouth name their engines, its publicity, and as regards named trains, Premier services have always had a name, i see no reason why the GWR should not run a " Cheltenham Express" if it was Their Premier train, say a dining train that ran non stop from Broadway To Race course , and marketed as such, same as say i see no reason why the WSR should not run a Bristol Coast Express, if it was a similar prestige operation

 

Well I have come across passengers who couldn't tell steam from diesel! My point is that we should not confuse our own interests with those of the non-enthusiast world. For instance I would cite the non-enthusiast wife of someone I know who thinks unrebuilt Bulleids are "boring".

PH

 

You have no more evidence to assert your belief that ordinary folk don't care about locos than those that believe they do; merely a couple of anecdotes from some normal people you know. Please can we put this one to bed?

 

The irony of your post is highly amusing.

 

A good debate which did not need to become a flame war!

 

They are aren't they?

 

My years associated with a steam railway - not usually underneath or inside anything - simply speaking with passengers, I have found the vast majority are simply out for a great and enjoyable time that day - sometimes despite the weather! Many people return another day before their holiday is over. They are not particularly interested in the locomotives history, colour or size; they just want a ride behind a steam locomotive and as far as the DSR is concerned other attractions to enjoy once they reach Kingswear. Few tourist lines can offer the large variety of attractions that can be found on the DSR.
They are not usually anxious about time keeping - but there are many things that are memorable for them, particularly if they have young children.
Many enthusiasts complain about the DSR naming their locomotives but those names are important for many visitors, particularly a great number of children. They note the name - return visitors comment on previous 'named' locos they have seen and a good number ask what is hauling the train they are about to join. Wheel nomenclature, size, livery and other things usually of interest to enthusiasts are low on their interest list but it should be remembered that most children, having been introduced in many ways to Thomas & Co., expect a loco to have a name. Visiting locos are always a good time for enthusiasts so everyone should be able to benefit from a well run line.
It is really these folk who matter - they are the ones who enable the railway to pay its bills and in the case of the DSR shareholder dividends.

 

Thank goodness most visitors just want a ride on a train with a steam engine on the front. You know, one of those big (as compared to the usual family hatchback) things with bits you can see going round and round or up and down and steam coming out here and there and a fire in there somewhere. Who don't really care if it has a 'special' name (but any name is better than none) and probably can only tell the difference between a smaller one and a bigger one - but it amazes the kids to see it all working.

If you are going to run a railway just for enthusiasts you are going to end up with fisticuffs on the platform if things are not considered 'right' to each individual opinion (much like the verbal fisticuffs on here ), people going off in a huff (small, cart like vehicle with pneumatic tyres) because 'it isn't right' and constant battles between groups with different opinions on what is needed to put it 'right'

Lets just be glad that there are enough of the uninitiated happily paying for a 'ride on a train...' (any old train) to give the railways sufficient funds to allow the 'enthusiasts' to actually have these arguments.

Edit: @Greenway got in there three minutes before me

 

The engines in the Thomas books might all have names. However, very few of them have nameplates. Most just have numbers on the side.

My daughter's favourite engine is 43106, purely because of its entirely unofficial name!

 

So have I come across them - but I don't mistake the individual for the general.

 

Several Directors and GMs of several railways with whom I have had conversation over the years hold a similar view related to locomotives. The "ideal" loco for the average passenger is green and has a name. The rest is mere detail. I suspect that people find it easier to "relate" to something that is named than something which is not. Of all the "green and named" locos only two have a wide public recognition (Flying Scotsman and Tornado, with the only other loco that might be recognisable being Mallard). The GW locos are popular because they are named, but there is no "recognition" within the wider public. The unrebuilt Bulleids I think are an exception to the rule that the general public likes "green named" engines, because they dont look much like a steam engine (a comment I have had a number of times). Whether the loco is visiting or not has no relevance to the general public unless it is FS or Tornado, when the visit provides an element of scarcity value to the opportunity to ride behind it.

More generally any railway's visitor is looking for the basics.... a nice ride in clean carriages with friendly staff and a cup of tea, all available for a "reasonable" price. How much will depend on the length of the ride etc etc. What moves a visit from acceptable to good or great will be things like:
- opportunity to visit a footplate
- "things to do" (stuff to see, people to explain and show, swings for the kids, etc)
- an understanding of the context of the railway and the history of its life and preservation
- a fully dressed "set" ... consistency of providing a backdrop that helps the imagination move into the context and history of the railway ... capturing of the "atmosphere" .. difficult to write down, but you know when you walk up the street at Crich, pass through the subway at Horsted Keynes, sit on the platform at Arley, walk through the ticket office onto platform 2 at Ropley and look across at platform 1, eat a cream tea at Stogumber. The environment is contrived, but contrived in the "right" way so as to enable the imagination to do the rest.

Strict authenticity isnt required. We are in the theatre business. We perform a trick on the imagination and we all know when it is "right". The set and trick is better, and less obvious the better and more consistent the set (which includes rolling stock and locomotives) are. The MHR as an example could not be anywhere other than southern England in the period 1955 to 1970, and by and large nothing impinges on that (a couple of the diesels are wrong for that era, but since these are not widely used at times when the "trick" is being pulled that doesnt matter too much). The best railways, in my opinion, aim for the consistency, that way you are only trying to pull one "trick" at a time on the imagination. A Terrier on 2 mark ones is fine, but better if the Mk1s are green and the Terrier BR black. I believe that the future success with the general public will in part require all of us to be more mindful of the need for consistency of the picture within reasonable boundaries.

 

Railways have to be a broad church between the two extremes.

Although not in the case of the DSR but elsewhere of course you hope that in 10-15 years time that those children you've captured through a name, Thomas, Peppa weekend etc will become your next generation of volunteers upon the future of the railway will depend, especially on heritage restorations/recreations.

At the same time, you may already have hardcore volunteers who care very much about x,y,z and who may dislike the 'selling out' aspect of the things that attract the punters, but on the other hand the hardcore are the people who put the effort in to ensure that flower beds look nice, or that the railway has things to recruit the railway enthusiasts to visit it again and again.

It is a fine line and one which is I think impossible to straddle without compromises which in the end may alienate one group or another. You may take an uncompromising stance and then wonder why your railway has never got beyond the 1/3 of a mile it opened 18 years ago.

Couldn't agree more. The one advantage of a MK1 is that you often find that said MK1 has come from a completely different region from the railway. As I recall the Bluebell has a very nicely finished green mk1, the mk1 itself seems to have spent its whole life in Scotland, LMR and Eastern region.

On the subject of theatre, look at things like WW2 weekends. They seem to be very popular and as long as most things look 'right' (sandbags, people in uniform) and looks like how people think a countryside station looked between 1939-45, they'll ignore that the train has mk1s in it or that the station signage is BR c1955.

 

My early life consisted of working on a line that was proud to have one of the 2-6-4 locomotives painted in bright blue with CR on the tanks and in the main the public loved it, yes you did on the footplate get the odd comment from the moaning "enthusiast" but they were the exception to the many paying passengers. I agree with you that in this game you are essentially in show business and the customer is indeed king, and having names on locos is all part of the marketing making your paying public feel part of the experience, what goes against that in my eyes is having all your locos in the same (drab?) livery whatever that colour is - as its variety that will attract the general public most and may for example encourage repeat visits just because they rode behind the "red one" last time. Now that's not to say the authentic liveries have their place they do, but its not the only factor and you can bet your bottom dollar that given a choice between a Terrier brightly painted in brown-ish (but described as green), or in BR black you can guess which one will have the most people riding behind her given that choice (besides most public will avoid the unwashed) . So if you have got the opportunity to paint a loco in ITS pre grouping livery grab it with both hands and leave the Black and Drab Green in the tin.

 

Loco swaps , would that be practical ?

 

I do think however 'the normals ' as you call them will appreciate seeing a big shiny green engine with copper and brass .