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Lottery turns down funding for GCR Museum

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Railboy, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    Business Rates (not Council Tax) are not usually payable on Operating Railway premises - only commercial areas, which would be easier to ensure that they were in a single local authority area. Either way, the same sized business premises would surely pay basically the same rates whether all in one local authority or part in each - the whole isn't in each in such (presumably quite rare) instances? (Obviously if Leicester City charged more than Leicestershire County, there would be a difference).

    Steven
     
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That presumes that the answer to space issues at York is more NRM at York, rather than opening branches elsewhere. You gave the example of the Tate, who have done rather well with their branches at Liverpool and St Ives.
     
  3. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    But those Tate branches are already in areas with high footfall numbers no doubt due to the other attractions in the immediate area, besides finding accommodation for art is somewhat easier than various 100tons lumps of steel, brass and copper. One answer to space problems is to open other branches, but the question I raise is it the best solution or is it just a compromise - I would say the later, perhaps the HLF should now think the same way? Also that compromise may also prove to be unsuccessful - is it worth taking that risk especially when one considers that museums have failed in Leicestershire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  4. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    From what is suggested within the most recent SR the HLF gave them ample opportunity to get the bid right, and deadlines continued to be missed in even finalising and submitting the Stage 2 bid. From personal experience of submitting HLF bids and subsequently managing HLF funded projects they are incredibly helpful in trying to get projects over the line, however they are also (rightly as it is essentially public money) extremely risk adverse and I wonder (pure speculation on my part) in this case they feared that if the promoters could not even get a stage 2 bid submitted to any sort of timetable how were they going to manage a complex multi-million pound construction project and subsequent facility.

    Also remember that in a Stage 1 pass the HLF are ring fencing some monies potentially for a project and within their financial planning this money has to remain available when the Stage 2 is (hopefully) passed, if they have lots of money sitting around with limited prospect of delivery at some stage they will have to decide enough is enough and commit it to another project, I suspect they also get pressured by the powers that be not to have large sums sitting around for too long.
     
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  5. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    Agree with your post, the article in Steam Railway covers the missed deadlines etc. (missed by 6 months). Also it seems the GCR seemed to try and back out a bit getting nervous about their ability to handle it and tried to get Leicester City Council to take over the responsibility, so if the GCR felt like that about it, you can't blame the HLF for having doubts too especially as the project was being done for the GCR.

    I wonder too whether there was other unrelated projects competing for the money. Sometimes with these high cost schemes there are other schemes also in the running and only 1 winner a bit like 3 people being interviewed for a job but only one gets it. Has a big chunk of money been awarded recently by the HLF to anything else in the region instead ?
     
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't remember Tate Liverpool being described as a surefire success like that when it opened - nor St. Ives. And while space is easier to find (perhaps - I believe the recent extension at St Ives has had to dig down due to lack of land), the fragility of many artworks imposes more onerous conservation requirements than those "100tons lumps of steel, brass and copper".

    As for "other museums have failed in Leicestershire", I believe they were in Leicestershire, not Leicester; two very different councils.
     
  7. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    Well I would know that having been a student in Leicester - whilst the councils are different I was referring to the likely lower number of passing tourists not how well or badly the local authority is run. York has a good passing trade and will always do well, Shildon less so and it shows - my guess is Leicester would be similar especially mid week.
     
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  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair comment - but that presumes an inability to attract visitors. Living in Grantham, Snibston was within travelling range yet never really entered my consciousness - yet I've taken the kids for days out to Twycross several times.
     
  9. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    New 'out-stations' enable wider audiences to more easily see things, but will cost more in running costs than adding extra space or facilities to an existing site. Given that 'sustainability' (i.e. 'not going bust') had undoubtedly been an issue with lottery assisted new attractions, this may mean the Lottery is more inclined to assist extending or improving proven facilities rather than producing new ones. If this is the case, then it could be a useful pointer as to what projects to submit, and how to 'phrase' bids in the future.

    Steven
     
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  10. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    The closure of Snibston was a travesty . An excellent museum with a lot of very good interactive activities for the younger generation it was everything a museum should be . For those of a railway persuasion the colliery line allowed scenes not really repeatable elsewhere so its closure was a hammer blow on two levels

    The GCR would benefit in having a display building especially given reduced access to the railway shed at Loughborough. It doesn't though need to denude the NRM to fill it nor does it need to be the £25mm building that was proposed .
     
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  11. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The HLF are very open to discussing where their priorities lie at any given time, I have attended any number of events (both public and heritage sector targeted) where HLF speakers have confirmed that they are looking to support more 'x' type projects at such and such a time.

    Plus when I have submitted bids the allocated HLF Case Officer will often suggest the best manner in which to present or phrase the application so it ticks their boxes and has the best chance of success. Admittedly I haven't led one for a few years (only contributed professional reports) but I cannot imagine its changed that much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  12. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    One issue that the debate is perhaps overlooking is how 'sustainable' the attraction was expected to be - i.e. income against running costs. When the SVR published more detailed figures than they do now, these showed a considerable loss was being incurred by The Engine House. I suspect internally, the SVR saw some ticket income as being due to The Engine House and the GCR would be similar but probably doesn't run as frequently as the museum would look to be open. Is this why they started to 'back off' (if they did)?

    From the reports of the contents of Steam Railway, initial delivery seems to have been questionable but I also wonder what the future viability looked like (and whether missed deadlines undermined the integrity of the future projections too.)

    Steven
     
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  13. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    @Bean-counter another factor maybe the requirements of the lottery . There was a time where an "educational" aspect was required as part of any bid . This needed headcount to perform that tended to be paid, thus adding an onerous cost into the future

    going off tangent but what are the major costs of running a museum ?

    Front of house staff
    Security
    insurance
    Cleaning
    Heat and light (could be solar/renewable)
    Cafe costs (self funding ?)
    Repairs
     
  14. tor-cyan

    tor-cyan Well-Known Member

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    It can not have helped that the Green acres cafe run by the GCR in conjunction with LCC has had to close due to it costing more to run than it made.

    Colin
     
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  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    The GCR is not short on catering establishments , with Quorn and Rothley having two each , Loughborough one and then greenacres plus on train catering . there is only so much tea and cake and bacon sandwiches one can eat
     
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  16. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    This was a big and brave vision and all credit to the GC for giving it a go. A stage 1 pass is not a guarantee of a stage 2, and the problem with big bold visions is that they can prove to be difficult to deliver. The fact that the submissions were late is probably demonstration of the difficulty and complexity of the vision. Eventually you have to call it a day.
     
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  17. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    I'm sure I heard the same.

    IIRC the SVR loco dept also contributes/contributed to the EH. Not so silly when there was allegely £70k additional overhaul costs on one loco due to external storage.

    In 2016 the HLF rejected a bid from the Severn Valley Railway Charitable Trust Ltd over concerns "that community engagement and interpretation plans were not sufficiently strong."

    Patrick
     
  18. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    I may be wrong (please feel free to correct ) but haven't both 43106 and 75069 needed barrel replacement as a result of corrosion caused by open storage for a number of years

    The HLF rejection was possibly the wagon shed on the stourport triangle
     
  19. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    No the link provided was for repairs to a viaduct:-

    https://www.svrwiki.com/Falling_Sands_Viaduct

    Although the problem of out of traffic stock whether it be locos, carriages or indeed wagons is a very real problem that needs to be addressed for the long term survival of such historic stuff. As a movement this is something that needs to be addressed and the HLF is one such funding body we need to tap - earlier I mentioned a job I had worked on at the British Museum Extension - a large part of this job (mostly underground) was the back of house conservation and storage of exhibits, is not such as a wagon shed of a similar function?
     
  20. I'm not so sure about that... :)
     

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