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RTC 'The High Peak Explorer: 17/03/18

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Bulleid Pacific, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Monopodmansdad

    Monopodmansdad New Member

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    Apologies I didn’t know there was already a thread running on this. It just seemed strange that they say gauging issues when UK steam says loco TBA.
     
  2. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Pretty sure no steam has yet used the reopened curve in the direction of Rochdale so perhaps only a black 5 is permissible but none available?
     
  3. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    31 December 2016, 44871 and 45407 used the new Todmorden curve on their way back from Fort William to the ELR.
     
  4. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Stand corrected, so black 5s did fit exactly 12 months ago. The issue must be loco availability in that case unless something else has changed meantime gauge wise.
     
  5. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Curiouser and curiouser. Whilst I understand it is by no means the final word at this stage, if UKSteam's routing indeed represents the latest thinking on where this trip will go, then it would seem that we will be heading for Accrington on the return.

    Embarking upon a bit of speculation with this information, it raises an interesting question about how we would get from Buxton to Accrington. RTC have already said that they intend to stop at Manchester Victoria on the return, and this appears to be borne-out by UKSteam. This would therefore rule out use of the now usual Sheffield trundle. Going via Denton on the return imposes a choice of either avoiding Victoria to get to Accrington; or heading to Victoria and heading straight back to Carnforth, as per the current RTC itinerary.

    Without knowing the service patterns, a possible route satisfying the current itinerary set out on UKSteam is Chinley, Hazel Grove, Stockport, Levenshulme, Oxford Road, Ordsall Curve, Victoria, Todmorden Curve, then up Copy Pit. As I said, pure speculation as things will probably change again, but certainly a 'would be nice if...' scenario!
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  6. gwr4090

    gwr4090 Part of the furniture

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    Don't forget that gauging clearances vary with time ! The clearances required depend on how long has elapsed since the route was last physically measured by the gauging train. This leads to apparent anomalies that a loco may be ruled out of gauge for a route and then later declared ok again even if nothing has physically changed in the interim. I undertsand that the gauging train covers most routes at least once every four years.
     
  7. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Fair points, naturally route approval lapses unless it has been renewed through use and/or periodic remeasurement.
    All of which makes advertising 'unusual' tours rather speculative as it relies on an assumption that either already approved traction will be available or an assurance that traction new to a route will be approved in time. None of these factors are within RTCs gift to manage so on what basis do they confidently produce brochure / offer the tickets?
     
  8. Monopodmansdad

    Monopodmansdad New Member

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    According to RYTC website. The route is now Chat Moss both ways. It’s not doing Copy Pit in either direction.
     
  9. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Regarding RTC, it depends on how recently details of the trip has changed, as the details on UKSteam seem to suggest another change in plan. Usual caveats apply.

    Anyway, January 1, 2018 and we have our first 'debate' about promoter advertising. It's nice to know nothing changes.

    In response, if not answer, to the question, following the logic, nothing should be advertised or sold until everything is settled. That's a laudable aim, but it's the railtouring version of Utopia that requires close coordination between promoter and NR without a third-party TOC getting in the way, an understanding that one-off tours are left well alone

    Saphos and WCRC are better-placed to offer this level of guarantee as they have internalised many of the processes and assets needed to operate, but that still begs the question of whether NR can meet their needs. UKRT are unusual in that they have close connections with the industry, and demonstrate the level of involvement required to secure what you want; however, even this doesn't guarantee success. Hence the general proliferation of repeat itineraries amongst some of the promoters which are 'safe' and guarantee regular runs in the four year gauging period cited above.

    A promoter, as has been said before, proposes a one-off trip to break-up the glut of repeat itineraries by offering an outline specification to the TOC. Not being party to such detailed discussions, one would imagine that the TOC offers comment if there is an issue in the first instance, or otherwise lodges it with NR, which raises its own problems in terms of timescales.

    In this instance, if gauging is the issue, then it might demonstrate that NR are on the ball and have given early feedback. This is because the routing has already changed once since the trip was originally advertised, presumably as a result of TOC input and the 'art of the possible'. It now seems even this was impossible based upon the available locomotives (which is still unclear, but it's a good bet that one will be a Jubilee). Not ideal, but at least all this is being hammered out now, rather than in the two weeks before the off.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  10. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Very much concur with most of that. The utopian position may not be realistic but my recommendation would be not advertising something unless there is a reasonably solid in principle agreement with owner, TOC, and NR that has a formal foundation. It would be fairer to take only reservations or deposits until full confirmations, accepting that even then something can change. It is not really good practice to sell tickets for an event which is really only in the realms of "hopeful".
     
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  11. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Once again, it would be ideal, but PTR offered the deposit facility, and they folded. Furthermore, SD offer one, but I seem to recall that they claim the balance well in advance of the trip; past experience suggests that details are usually still being settled during this time.
     
  12. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Harshly one could say that it is not, then, a viable business practice if it requires customers to 'lend' their money in the hope the wish is fulfilled. Cannot think of any other ticketed events that operate in this way and I suspect would be clamped down if they did. One analogy being a gig where neither artist or venue has actually been formally booked before releasing tickets. Would anyone stump up in full if they knew the reality?
     
  13. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That's strange, I've just been on the RYTC website and it still says Copy Pit.o_O
     
  14. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Says Chat Moss both ways on the version I just saw.
    Thinking about this further would it perhaps be wiser to advertise plan B first whilst plan A is being worked on and then introduce the "better" tour as a kind of bonus when/if confirmed?
     
  15. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Very strange. Copied this 5 minutes ago...... http://www.railwaytouring.net/uk-day-trips/the-pennine-limited
     
  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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  17. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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  18. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    And changes may yet be made in the interim, as we are on Plan B at the moment. If the recent revision on UKSteam is correct, there could be a Plan C being worked on.

    Returning to the previous point, some music gigs have been known to fold based upon promises. The difference with the railtour market is that you have a choice of refund or transfer to another tour, so at least something can be salvaged. Whilst this doesn't solve the problem of money spent on overnight stays, it pays to resist going for the cheapest room rate and treat the extra spent on a flexible rate as insurance against this kind of thing. Train fares are a bit more difficult.
     
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  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    My point is in general terms any "supplier" should only advertise a product or service they can have genuine and reasonable belief of being able to provide. In this type of situation they should start with the most realistic/proven route for the destination as the advertised one and work in the special aspects as and when they can be confirmed. That way nobody is misled - under promise, over deliver?
     
  20. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Not that point again, please. I'm sure we all get it.

    In this market, what is 'genuine and reasonable belief' is almost certainly what applies at the time of putting up a trip. What changes, apart from loco issues, is often something that Network Rail decides to do, alter or discover at the last minute. Try getting some redress from them. I've tried it twice and each time they have ducked, dived and sloped shoulders.
     
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