If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well now, that cuts both ways, doesn't it boys and girls? ;)
     
    lynbarn and Felix Holt like this.
  2. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,857
    Likes Received:
    2,793
    I guess elected representatives will campaign for your vote, if that’s what you mean. But the best of them, in my experience, like to consider the planning issues before them as well.
     
  3. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I am afraid this is all too serious.The courts can be used to overturn a decision on the grounds that the laid down procedures have not been followed to the letter.

    Paul H
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,106
    Likes Received:
    57,443
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Not quite - in the context of a steam loco, the thermodynamics is about the fundamental properties of the steam, specifically its energy content and how much of that can be translated into useful work. Fluid dynamics concerns how the steam moves through the engine as a fluid, interacting with the structure (walls etc), which causes resistance, i.e. energy loss. The key point being that neither scales in a linear fashion, limiting the usefulness of building a scale model as a trial.

    On the question of why seeming advances in fluid dynamics (such as streamlined passages) and thermodynamics (such as long valve travel) didn't propagate faster: the old CME's weren't mugs, but you need to realise that the key metric was financial return, not necessarily efficiency - the two are related, but not directly so.

    As an example, there is an interesting chapter in Holcroft's book about mechanical handling of coal in the Nine Elms coaling plant. They measured that as much as 19% (about 30 tons per day) of the coal loaded into the plant as lumps ended up being crushed to dust by time it emerged. Some that coal would have been lost, whether by being swept unburnt through the tubes, or simply blown off the tender at speed. Solving that problem would likely have made a bigger difference financially than a bit of tinkering around with valve gear. But then there is layered on other factors: even losing some of the coal as dust, the saving in labour still made the plant worthwhile, relative to a more labour-intensive operation in use previously. Plus there was a labour relations angle: apparently the coal men at Nine Elms could sometimes be militant, bringing a key MPD to a halt for an hour or so in some minor protest. Having mechanical handling allowed a skeleton staff of the management to keep the depot functioning - such a concern no doubt being very valuable in financial terms. All of which goes to show that there was far more to being a CME than simply endlessly trying to design the most modern and up-to-date vehicle in engineering terms. They were industrial concerns, not Formula 1 teams!

    Tom
     
  5. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,484
    Likes Received:
    483
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Working in the NHS as a Maintenance Electrician
    Location:
    Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Reading between the lines on this, the ENPA have a tough job to do, this is the biggest planning application they have ever had to deal with, so they have to follow legal process.

    If they get it wrong then the L&BR will take it to the next level and more than likely win on appeal, if they decide to give the L&BRT the green light then we still end up going to court because Mrs Grob appeals.

    I hope you guys can see where this all might end up. I mean if it end up going to court and appeal, then the way forward has to be to develop Blackmoor as soon as it is possible and to switch to bringing that section on line and to become the center of attention.

    OK, it is not what we want and I hope that it does not happen, But once Blackmoor is up and running it will be just as easy to head south toward Barnstaple and get that section up and running first, which will allow for all the legal hassle to be dealt with in Exmoor Park going on to Lynton.

    I am confident that the Trustees have all the bases covered. Part of me feel this ain't over yet.
     
  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    By no means all, but some were certainly wedded to oudated design, for whatever reason. Witness the likes of the Baltic saga, where both Furness and G&SW designs were hopelessly obsolete a decade before they were built, the B&CDR examples were a potentially great BP design turned into a dog's breakfast due to that railway's internal power struggles. Fowler and Stanier 2-6-2t's were notably poor performers. Bob only knows how much the Derby insistance on inadequate bearings cost in reliability and increased maintenance, it (along with an awful steam circuit) certainly bu**ered up the LMS Garratts. Even the large 0-6-0s of the blessed Sir Nigel suffered balance issues that were never fully resolved. Maunsell's 'Nelsons' (in original form) and Bulleid's pacifics weren't unduly economical. The list goes on and on. IMO the UK (certainly railway owned development and production) had lost it's edge by the end of the first war. In view of the constant pressures from boards for economy, it's rather surprising that it seemingly took a kick up the complacency from Chapelon's work before anything much regarding internal streamlining happened here. Porta's subsequent work may appear more akin to watchmaking than loco engineering to many, but it seems beyond doubt that his theories provided substantial efficiency improvements when properly applied.

    I'm not saying there weren't good designs, but much we look so fondly on were no better than average at best. 'Spose you can't expect something as outstanding as a Maunsell V or Riddles 9F every time and even Churchward had his 'off days' (cough... 38XX).

    In the case of the L&B MWs, Pretty? Perhaps to some ..... Iconic? Definitely! ..... A good design? Frankly, not very, but this seems well and truly trumped by the iconic bit. I don't suggest any radical rejigging unless a totally novel design was in prospect. If they're what the Trust want, fine and dandy. It's their money.... their call, but where improvements like those already applied to "Lyd" can be incorporated, with perhaps some internal tweaks to improve things further, there's no heresy. If some of those 5" high Devon firemen could be found, the low firehole would be less of a problem (so would cleaning the firebox!). More seriously, if that 1.5ton axle load imbalance could be tamed a bit it wouldn't hurt much. Should GPS be included? Keen as I am on improving combustion (and reducing the chances of lineside fires), let's see how it goes on "Lyn" first. If it were my call, I'd certainly hold off any final decision for a while until that question can be better answered.
     
    lynbarn likes this.
  7. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,190
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It seems to me that unless the L&B had been equipped with some kind of Plug Ugly unreliable abomination of a loco they would have been described as Iconic................
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Rest easy Paul. Don't mistake any levity here for not grasping the situation. For my part, I've been involved with several groups both supporting and opposing various large planning applications (mostly within Sussex), sometimes with aspects of both simultaneously regarding one project.... which can be "interesting" at times! In this instance, my submission was a purely individual one, though reinforced with data taken from, among others, Council and ENPA websites

    The sheer size of the L&B applications is most readily grasped by seeing a simple photo from their website. Herewith, one planning application:
    Planning_Docs_1.JPG.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
    lynbarn and brmp201 like this.
  9. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    The rear axle load has already been reduced by on Lyd by incorporating things such an aluminium cab. Of course the southern railway did away with the rear bunker which also helps. The problem is you have a large firebox behind the rear driving wheels.

    As for fire throwing and combustion efficiency. Lyd has a very effective master mechanics style spark arrestor as do all the FR locos. The FR also uses Welsh coal with very little in the way volatile gases to burn off with secondary air. It is virtually smokeless with sufficient primary air, a lot of the engines don't even have provision for secondary air now. So essentially the FR have already made that 1/3 reduction in consumption by burning a higher quality coal. With the added bonus of not spending money on converting to GPCS.

    Tim
     
    paulhitch and 30854 like this.
  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Rather irritatingly, the MW GA drawings in my old Catchpole history (OL51) don't show individual axle loads. Nor can I find reference to an axle load figure for either the old or revived lines. I know that "Lyn" carries a fair bit of additional lead weight and that some locos (those I know of are 15" gauge and below) have utilised heavy section steel for smokeboxes and bufferbeams to add weight. Perhaps, if it doesn't exceed axle load, either would be do-able for the MW design. It'd improve adhesion and make life easier for drivers.

    Regarding GPS, doesn't the firehole door on "Lyd" pretty much go half-way to providing over-bed air supply anyway?

    It would be unthinkable that the design team wouldn't take account of experience with both "Lyd" and "Lyn". I hold both Blodge and Keefe's in high regard, so I've no doubt design and construction will be handled with the utmost professionalism. I think it would be worth contacting the fundraising folks on the Pennsy T1 project to see whether their engineering drawing copies bring in enough to be worth considering doing the same to gain some additional income for the new MWs.
     
  11. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The FR had previously experimented with converting Linda to GPCS; the experiment ran for about a year in 1985-86, and I recall it being discussed in the press at the time. Presumably the results were not considered worth continuing with.
     
  12. Hirn

    Hirn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    295
    Gender:
    Male
    The price of oil fell - that it had had a peak was a major reason for fitting a gas producer firebox to Linda.
    The people changed about this time but the Lempor exhaust did last longer.
     
  13. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes Received:
    3,563
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Lyd weighs in at 25 tons. Axle loadings are: Front truck 3.5, Front Driver 6.5, Mid Driver 6.0, Rear Driver 5.0 and Rear truck 4.0 tons.
    (Source: WHR Lyd page)
    Unless it's a typo, it shows the engine as front-heavy, which seems counter intuitive, as an aluminium cab would exacerbate the difference. Perhaps this is because when accelerating under load, the weight would redistribute rearwards? I don't know, I'm not an expert. Anyone?
     
    30854 likes this.
  14. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    Bristol / Priddy
    Mark, what you suggest is what I'd expect to see. Generally speaking, axle loading issues are predominantly front end heavy problems due to cylinders being located in front of the leading drivers. In fact I'm not sure I can recall a case of an engine ever being rear end loaded! As such, the suggestion of an aluminium cab to save weight doesn't seem to make sense?

    I had wondered if the choice of cab material is to extend life expectancy of the platework and reduce the chances of corrosion. That said though, I would've thought that galvanized steel would've been preferable to aluminium, so perhaps weight was a consideration?

    One possible thought, I don't suppose Aluminium would've been used to make it easier to lift the cab off, for instance if having an interchangable full height cab?

    Regards

    Paul
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,106
    Likes Received:
    57,443
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If you have an aluminium cab attached to a steel locomotive, isn't there an enhanced risk of galvanic corrosion of the aluminium part?

    Tom
     
    Wenlock and andrewshimmin like this.
  16. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    Bristol / Priddy
    If its bare metal to metal then yes Tom! If painted and sealed then its ok, although there's still a risk of a reaction as soon as that coating is penetrated.

    Paul
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  17. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    The difference between a 2ft gauge engine and a standard gauge one is where you put the firebox. Unless you go for a long thin firebox like a War Office Hunslet, it is almost always hung behind the rear driving wheels. On a standard gauge engine it is typically over the rear driving axle extending fowards towards the middle one. On top of this the loco is smaller so the ratio between the weights of the cylinders and firebox will change. The likes of Lyn, the England engines, the Alco all have balance weights at the front.

    If it was front end heavy why would the tanks project all the way to the front of the smokebox?

    There has never been any intention to be able to change the whole cab. Just the sections of the roof at the edge.

    I'm not making this stuff up. I've been FR loco crew for 14 years now. I witnessed the thing being built!

    Tim
     
    clam1952 likes this.
  18. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    It would do if you ran with it cracked open, but if you do the effect is like putting the feed on. Keep it closed between shovels and it steams a lot better. The heat is almost entirely in the fire bed. You see very little in the way of flames coming off the coal. More like a white glowing mass on the grate. Of course the down side is it is very easy to damage fire bars if you don't maintain that primary air supply as the driver shuts off.

    Tim
     
  19. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes Received:
    3,563
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    don't know. I'm only quoting the figures put up on the WHR Lyd page. Are they wrong?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2017
  20. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,190
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Cant agree more, continues to this day
     

Share This Page