Repton

i think he is refering to the Southern Railway asking Swindon for a copy of the castle engineering drawings, when the Lord Nelson Class was being Designed, Swindon ssaid no, but the LMS did allow drawings of the Original parallel boiler Scots to be viewed by Maunsell . As regards what some may say, the later designs such as the N's, U's V's all did the job expected of them, as regards the comment about lack of cab comfort, the southern Mogols i thought were as well laid out as any engine, and there were some times when i welcomed seeing 31625 or 30506 in the loco column when i signed on, as oppossed to 34016, 34105, or 35005 , on a hot summer day tender first feeling the cooling breeze was very welcome , as long as you kept the coal well dampened down

 

I am afraid you have got this story back to front. It was the LMS who asked the GWR for the Castle drawings and the Southern who provided the Lord Nelson ones when the GWR refused. Lord Nelson was built in 1926 and Royal Scot in 1927. I suspect that the Southern had a pretty good idea of Swindon practice as Pearson and Holcroft were both recruited from Swindon by Maunsell.

 

whoops

 

Slightly better angle here (not mine)
https://flic.kr/p/Wa28hm

 

Do you have a source for this remark?
As for what you'd personally do with the V and the S15, open your mind a little son and appreciate all steam locos and think yourself damn lucky that so much has survived.
Ever thought of volunteering for footplate duty on the NYMR? That way you'd get personal experience of different locos on which to base your opinions.

 

Okay, time to eat humble pie over the "copy of designs comment" - clearly I got that bit wrong, which was funny as I corrected myself having posted it and got back to work, but then knew Id take a bashing once it was posted. All fair game and fair comment.

I still take the view that even so, at the time Southern and Midland designs were behind others, North Eastern in some types maybe, but Western region engines certainly.

I am greatful that so much has survived, if saddened by the way that everything up North got torched and engines down south found salvation after a stay in Barry - which I think massively skews the views of people as its far easier to see Southern engines at work today and in recent years when theres many examples of a class in existence over one of each design for the North Eastern and Eastern region. I very much admire the hard work that many volunteers do - hence the caveat written at the end of my previous post pointing out that I appreciate and admire the hard work done and the standard of work achieved by the NYMR on Repton.

Ive spoken to crews on different lines and heard their advice. I can also tell how a crew is finding the engine by watching them at work. My own chances to follow in their footsteps might happen one day, but for now work and home life give me reason to pause. Until recently I have been volunteering, but that is with a different skill set working with children and adults - which some here might find harder (especially with the responsibility being mine to handle), pending on their own views there.

Still, theres always a chance to try and find other engines to see and view at work to compare and expand on my experiences. That's why I've just been away, down south to see some at work. They were all decent stuff, but only had 4 numbers on a cabside numberplate...

 

Not strictly true. Some engines were sent to Barry from Northern sheds. Five of the Black Fives which were sent to Barry came from Carlisle Kingmoor (44901. 45163, 45293, 45337 and 45491) and all the 76xxx series 2-6-0s' final shed was Springs Branch apart from 76017. Shrewsbury, which was the final shed of quite a few Barry locos, isn't exactly "down south" either!

In a more general sense, you are correct with some 40 Southern engines ending up there as opposed to only one from the LNER. None of the engines active in the final months of North Eastern steam ended up there, which in my mind is a pity.

On that issue, while I am very much a Southern fan and do not agree with your comments about the inferiority of Southern locos (although I will grant that tender first on an S15 in bad weather isn't much fun!), I think that if and when the NYMR has sufficient active locos to be able to contemplate allowing them to visit other lines as guest engines, the North Eastern duo of 63395 and 65894 would probably be more in demand for galas, etc than Repton as both are unique whereas Repton isn't.

 

A lot of it was pot luck, had any of the engines gone to Cashmores not Barry, none would have survived, who knows, had Dai Woodham, bid for eastern region engines, he might have ended up with different engines gathering rust in his yard, just be thank full that so many did escape the cutters torch .

 

You are obviously a NE man but there really is no comparison between a D49 and a Schools, it is not for no reason that the latter were deemed to be the most powerful 4-4-0 ever built in the UK. The start out of Tonbridge was 1 in 53 with a climb at 1 in 80 to 1 in 150 all the way to Strawberry Hill Tunnel and I think 1 in 60 out of Hastings the other way. On the lines in Kent they were used on expresses routed via Maidstone East with 1 in 80 Bearsted Bank, on the SE Mainline there wasn't the 1 in 100 of Sole St Bank so plenty of hard work to test them. They were also very sure footed, they had to be having to weave their way out of London among the intensive electric EMU suburban services.

 

A few slight corrections here:- the 1 in 60 was the other side of Hastings gong towards Ore. Tangmere stalled on it a few years back. Schools did work that line, but loads were lighter going towards Rye and Ashford. The steepest climb for London trains from Hastings is 1 in 75, between Stonegate and Wadhurst. Bearsted Bank on the Maidstone East line is 1 in 60 and there is also a stretch of 1 in 77 between Otford and Kemsing. Sole Street was not on the South Eastern Main line but on the London, Chatham & Dover main line.

Your main point is valid nonetheless - they put up some brilliant performances on the former SE&CR routes as they did on the Porstmouth Direct with 1 in 80 up to Haslemere and Buriton. Also managed 95mph between Dorchester and Wareham. I think the engine in question was Stowe.

 

Thanks for the corrections, I wasn't sure of the grade out of Hastings and for Sole St I should have said SE&CR

 

Surely the argument re SR locos v the others needs to bear in mind that the SR was geared to long term electrification / MU operation from its its early Post Grouping days hence the region designed its loco fleet for the short runs within its boundaries. Even Bulleid was constrained by that factor but his solution was to adopt the BB/WC design as his "standard" locomotive knowing that any power excesses on the "withered arms" of Devon and Cornwall would be compensated by their operation on the main lines to Weymouth and the South Coast ports and the resulting "standardisation" that would see reductions in the variety of spares needed at depots to keep locomotives working.

Sometimes I feel that discussions such as these tend to overlook 2 important factors - (1) the environment in which locomotive designs were introduced to service and (b) the financial state of the railways in the Inter War (Depression) years when many of today's preserved locomotives were first conceived. Thus comparing the NER / LNER which depended on freight traffic with the SR which depended on passenger / commuter traffic is surely like comparing the difference between using a Ferrari and a Rolls Royce to operate a taxi service !!

 

I think you are trying to view Southern engines against North Eastern duties. Had all the Southern engines been transplanted en-masse to Gateshead in 1935, arguably they would have struggled. But, had all the North Eastern engines come the other way to Southern England, they would equally have ended up in a heap before the week was out. So you can't make statements about capability unless you understand the context in which that capability had to be deployed.

The job of a CME is to provide suitable motive power for the trains required to operate the system, within the available resource constraints, and REL Maunsell did that admirably. But you do have to appreciate the operating conditions.

Firstly, the Southern (and its pre-grouping forebears) were primarily passenger lines. There were some heavy mineral trains associated with coal traffic (though much of that went by coastal ship), cement, lime and so on, but less so that in the heavy coal and iron parts of the country. On the other hand, there was considerable perishables traffic, both regular (milk from the West Country, bananas from Southampton) and seasonal (fruit from Kent and Hampshire; flowers from the Channel Islands bought in via Southampton etc.) That required considerable fast goods or NPCS working.

There was also, amongst the passenger traffic, huge peaks. Not only the obvious ones such as summer holiday traffic; but for example, there were 23 race courses generating irregular traffic; nearly 40 private schools each of which needed special trains at the beginning and end of term. The result of that was that even ostensibly freight locos had to be able to work passenger trains when called upon (if you look at historic photos, even out-and-out freight designs generally had screw couplings and often steam heat connections, on the assumption that they would be regularly called on to deputise on passenger workings). Most of the "typical" British-type 0-6-0 goods on the Southern had wheels round about 5' - 5'3" rather than round about 4'6" common elsewhere, again because the need to run passenger traffic on occasion was more important than maximising haulage power. (As a topical aside, it is maybe lucky that the brunt of organising the trains at short notice for the Dunkirk evacuation fell to the SR; not just because they had the motive power and a lot of rolling stock available but out of traffic, stored for peak demands; but also because their traffic department had organising such a service down to fine art by virtue of long experience with seasonal peaks and fitting in irregular boat traffic).

Secondly, while speeds were never that high (until the summer of '67 at least), the network of lines around London was very congested, meaning that a premium was set on keeping exactly to timetable and hitting key junctions exactly on time. Even freight trains were sometimes timed to the nearest 30 seconds in the working timetables round London. The lines through London were constantly twisting and in and out of tunnels, with saw-tooth gradient profile (often hitting adverse gradients straight off severe speed restrictions) precluding high speed but requiring a very capable engine.

The CME then had to meet those demands, but also do so against severe capital constraints, with most money going to electrification. So no free hand in the drawing office: the Schools class took basically a King Arthur firebox (meaning the same forming blocks could be used); attached to a shortened barrel, with the pressure raised. That King-Arthur derived boiler is then attached to a chassis bearing a lot in common with a Lord Nelson, again economising on spares and drawing office time. The round top firebox allowed the cab sides to be sloped in, giving route availability through the Hastings line tunnels, before and after the bane of loco working in South East England (and only finally solved when BR made them single track...) What resulted was, pound for pound, undoubtedly the finest express passenger engine ever built in this country, and arguably more capable in absolute terms than many 4-6-0s weighing 20-odd tons more.

Tom

 

I agree with most of that, but are you really saying that the Schools was a better express passenger engine than an A4 or Duchess? I think that is partisanship taken a bit far!

 

No, I said "pound for pound", i.e. better than anything of equivalent weight - Duchesses and A4s are rather heavier! Clearly those locos would be more capable of sustained high-output steaming (whatever combination of increased load and speed that translated to). I think you could make a case that the Schools were more capable passenger locos than quite a number of larger 4-6-0s at least: not all, but a number.

Tom

 

926 on the webcam now....

https://www.nymr.co.uk/live-webcam

 

Must be confident in her abilities, dragging 6, and a Class 26 up the bank, just left!!!

 

I'm just glad Repton is back and in Southern Paint scheme to boot. Variety is the spice of life.