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Ton up Tornado

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by MarkinDurham, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    So whats next? 127mph? :eek:
     
  2. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Certainly a good candidate on paper, though I don't recall seeing any recorded instances of this loco running exceptionally fast
    In which case the time to start working on that is now, whilst shes in bits. A comprehensive survey backed up by pertinent material testing is always a good start...
    Do we think that stating an intention to apply for higher permitted running speeds would attract more support for this locomotive or other Locomotives to pay for the added expense involved...?

    One think to think about is that Tornado has now been tested running at higher speeds, but the results of those tests may not necessarily give the green light to 90mph running ( though the A1slt must think theres a very good chance). They could perhaps say ' actually good for a bit more' or 'can only sanction 85'

    This Locomotive has now undergone a selection of tests on three instances ( Great central along with Ollie Cromwell ? , initial mainline loaded test runs, and now this latest one) and so a good picture of its characteristics as a vehicle are available to the regulatory bodies, the same data is not available for any other locomotive that im aware of and so this doesn't open the way for any other Loco. (except perhaps Blue Peter which is so very similar ; apart from driving wheel diameter, bogie spring settings and cartazzi geometry). it only demonstrates that there is a way....
    Does anyone know if any tests we're being conducted on Bitterns outing... perhaps paving the way for a Mallard Ton in 2038 ?
     
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's all nonsense. These 'spot' speeds that you get from GPS are highly suspect. I am sure that at some point a momentary 101.6 was achieved. Let's all agree that Tornado topped 100 and probably reached 101. I refuse to accept speeds other than in whole mph on my logs. I might slip into half mph if we get down to 30 but at 100? Really!
     
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  4. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Any more suspect than the human eye spotting 1/4 mile posts that may not be accurately spaced?
     
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  5. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    Regarding the speculation on what other locomotives could follow, I would like to make the observation that Tornado, Bittern and DoG have Kylchap frontends with exhaust areas in the order of a 7 inch orifice equivalent. Since this is very much about the possibility to accelerate to a a higher speed the largest exhaust area has a definitive advantage. I would humbly suggest that any other front-end design would need to be reconsidered.
    kind regards
    Jos Koopmans
     
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  6. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    Tornado reps always use the selling point that the engine is new build and thus built to modern standards. It is built to tight tolerances but then so is every steam engine that has been mentioned. The claim is that as new build they should be treated differently, ergo, they should run to 90. To be honest there is a logic to this, but it could be said that it implies that older engines shouldn't or couldn't do this.

    All I did was just stop and go..."Hang on a minute... does that mean?" Theres nothing wrong with that, I just put it out there to debate, but got jumped on when they thought I was questioning something they are passionate about and got very defensive, very quickly. It wasn't that at all.

    I have said that older engines could do it and that they would have to meet the higher safety requirements, such as definitely running with air brakes, with permanent lighting and that even past performances and track record should be taken into account. I've said that its no shock that its all done using the DB Cargo safety case, rather than others, but that it could pave the way for others to follow but expect that not all will. I've also celebrated the result, saying its fantastic and that it shows the future of how it all will pan out and that this could be Tornado leading the market into a new field.

    True and I've tried to include reference to events and trends that point out that the future of this looks great. and to back up what has been said. Things like safety systems, where the run can take place, what the future will be for pathing, where trains to do this would want to start from, braking distances for engine and stock based on braking systems and the recent event where this was brought to light more, who's safety case it would be on, and technology needed for it to happen. Even stock used might be a consideration for the future and Mk1.s given a 75mph limit - I can see that coming.

    Exactly...!! But the start up costs of this will be considerable and the overhaul is likely to be expensive. If they have the funds or can get them then it can be done, but for any other engine (Gresley included) wanting to do this, they have to find the equipment and relationship with a operator for their safety case to make it happen. That's where a lot of hard work is needing to be done and really you have to give Tornado tons of credit for having in place from the word go...

    But like I've said. All this is bloody marvellous and fascinating to watch develop.
     
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  7. Victor

    Victor Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Oh, ok, if you say so.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  8. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

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    Its an almost given on any ECMl deltic blast, I had it 5 years or so ago Northbound, Southbound we had Tornado.

    Was a great day out.
     
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  9. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

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    I know under the custodianship of Roger Barker, their were no suggestions of going for 90mph, it is on Youtube somewhere, extended maintenance was quoted.

    Now that may change with the current overhaul, but I think they like to run her comfortably, and probably avoid the knock on effects of it.

    Also she does a lot of preserved line work, hopefully again, once she is back, but never say never....
     
  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Now that's naughty! By 'spot' speed what I mean is an instantaneous measure achieved only once. I much prefer the 'speed trail' that even with GPS will iron out any random measurement. It's the GPS equivalent of the dynamometer chart.
     
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  11. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It all comes back to the words of the late Peter Beet who noted that it would cost money for maintenance simply to stuff it in a museum hence the balance of running on the heritage line or the main would be the balance of maintenance costs (including the 10-year overhaul) against the income generated. He expected there to be a gap between the two figures that he presumed would be filled by the owner's pockets - assuming they were deep enough to meet the need !

    Obviously the A4 Society is aware of that balance hence the late Roger Barker's policy but I presume that the A1SLT is calculating the its unique certification of 100 mph running will encourage a premium running fee that will also "fill the gap" !
     
  12. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    who would have thought a couple of decades ago that a brand new loco would do 100mph in the main line? It's a huge achievement and speaks volumes about the professional approach to "preservation" in some quarters.
     
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  13. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    When it has passengers, Tornado will be pathed at 90mph. The test runs were for 90+1o%, to show that capacity is there for the engine to be able to perform. It wont be running at 100mph - not unless they do a speed run test for 110mph+!!
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    60007 has already achieved the ton so has nothing to prove. When Tornado goes above 113mph then thats the gauntlet thrown down. :)
     
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  15. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Is there a possibility that some owners will want to look at the pros and cons of having a higher speed available, not so that they can use 90mph paths, but so that they can run a 75mph path at something closer to a constant evaporation rate?
     
  16. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

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    With 60007 being Bill Hoole's weapon of choice, I think 100mph would have been the norm most days!!!
     
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  17. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    And to 1/100th of a second as well :rolleyes:.
    As an ex professional motor race timekeeper, hand timing was 1/10th at best, and that's sitting in a comfortable box watching the cars/bikes go past infront of you and crossing a very clear white line. Breaking a light beam was the only way to get any accuracy better that a tenth.
     
  18. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    Hello Jos,

    What front end did the DRG Class 05 have?
     
  19. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    There was an article in Steam Railway a couple of years ago about A4s regularly hitting 130mph down Stoke Bank in the 1950s to regain lost time.
     
  20. Argus

    Argus New Member

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    A consideration maybe, but lets not forget Silver link in single chimney non kylchap form managed to achieve 113mph and run consistently above 100mph for some considerable distance during a press run in 1935. As did 6220 coronation achieving 114 mph the following year.
     

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