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LMS 2P 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by joshs, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Think you might be forgetting about the Saint and County, making four "new builds" (or "rearrangements of standard parts" if you prefer!) all being funded simultaneousy and trailing in the wake of the steam railcar.
     
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  2. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    To turn this on its head - how many 4-4-0s (other than Schools class) are outside the NRM? What percentage of our heritage railway's steam fleets came from out of Barry, and how many those were 0-6-0 or 4-4-0 tender engines?
     
  3. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    The Irish version was very well thought of. In fact, despite superficial appearances, they weren't similar at all, but were the final product of a long and complicated evolution on the BNCR/NCC.
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    As far as I am aware, there were only two 0-6-0 tender engines out of Barry - one of which was comparatively late in design (the Maunsell Q); the other was a MR Class 4F. There were no 4-4-0 tender engines.

    I think on the Bluebell there are 11 out of 32 that came from Barry, but I suspect that percentage is possibly at the low end of the range, at least for ex-mainline locos! Of the non-Barry locos, there is one inside-cylinder Georgian(*) 4-4-0 (the Dukedog) along with a couple of pre-grouping 0-6-0 tender engines; an 0-6-2T that isn't a GWR one; a 4-4-2T and an 0-4-4T, amongst others.

    (*) Readers are invited to decide for themselves which Georgian period of history...

    Tom
     
  5. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I'm forgetting nothing.
     
  6. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    A 2P managing 300 tons over the Mendips? When was this recorded? Their load limit was 200 tons and I cannot see one managing a 50% overload unaided over those grades. Most crews, if not all, would have baulked at 300 tons unaided with a Black 5 (load limit 270 tons), let alone a 2P. Remember also that coaches were generally lighter in those days so you might just get a 6 coach train of Mk 1s to load within their 200 ton limit but you would probably get 7 coaches of prewar stock within this limit. Sorry to disagree with you on this.

    Peter James
     
  7. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Also 4Fs 44123 and 44422.
     
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  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I believe they had Walschaerts valve gear for a start which originated in the collaboration between W.Bowman Malcolm and Beyer Peacock.

    Paul H.
     
  9. Shed9C

    Shed9C New Member

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    As you say 200 tons was the 'official' limit over the Mendips. From memory (Peter Smith's excellent S&D books) I think the load of 10 (300+ tons) could have been via Parkstone bank, so not the Mendips as such but still a harsh 1-in-60 which you wouldn't expect a 2P to manage unassisted. Also heard of a few other similar exploits, but typically 6 Mk1's is a fair load for these loco's, similar to a good number of heritage lines.
     
  10. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    There is also one in existence, which despite needing some very serious work would still steam for less than a new build 2P. It would be able to stretch its legs on the mainline, being ideal for RPSI service. But of course much better spend a fortune building a type known to be at best patchy and probably very inferior, so it can run backwards at 25mph.
    Personally I think the U2 is doing nicely at Cultra, and the RPSI have more than enough projects, but still a better idea than a new 2P.
     
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  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Peter Smith quotes a regular Sat evening 2P turn from Templecombe to Bournemouth West. The four coach load from Bath usually had an additional four empty coaches added which he estimated loaded to about 240 tons. The formidable but short banks at Corfe Mullen (1 in80) and Parkstone (1 in 60) presented a real challenge as they both involved a station stop part way up. But 240 tons was well within the 2Ps load limit of 275 tons for this section. No mention that I can find of 10 coaches or 300 tons unaided on this section either although that load would have been ok on the Evercreech Junction to Corfe Mullen where the 2P limit was 310 tons.

    It is always enjoyable to have an excuse to dig out Peter Smith's two excellent little volumes.

    Peter
     
  12. Shed9C

    Shed9C New Member

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    Hi Peter. Your right about finding an excuse to dig out Peter Smith's books, and I've just done so!
    Check out page 29 of Footplate Over The Mendips - Peter Smith himself witnessed from his home alongside Parkstone bank 40634 (ex S&D 45) managing 10 (around 340 tons:eek:) and reckoned it topped the bank at 10-12mph. A couple of very knowledgable gents in Radstock museum also spoke of similar 2P exploits.
    Of course any such performances were right at the maximum for a 2P, but besides their reputation of very poor running at high speed they weren't all that bad.
     
  13. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    OK You are right - I did not see that reference as I looked up his assessments of the 2P in Mendip Engineman. I did find a reference to a similar feat by an Ivatt tank which took a 10 coach 335ton load unaided up Parkstone which is pretty impressive for even a modern class 2 so the 2P's effort is astounding - talk about chancing you arm!

    Peter
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If 340 tons is accurate (they're heavy coaches) and adding the loco weight (say 90 tons) that gives a weight of 430 tons on a 1 in 60 gradient. That requires a tad over 16,000 lbf T.E. just to overcome the gradient. That's before we add anything for friction, etc, which is going to be at least 3,000 lbf. A 2P has a T.E. of 17,585 lbf so the figures don't really stack up.
    Much the same comment can be made about the Ivatt 2-6-2T, which has a similar T.E. to the 2P (but no tender to drag around).
     
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  15. Shed9C

    Shed9C New Member

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    The figures probably don't stack up, but is tractive effort alone always a totally accurate representation of what a loco is capable of in the real world? Also the 2P (and no doubt 2MT) were losing speed up the bank, and we don't know what kind of speed it hit the foot of the bank at. Probably if the 1-in-60 would've been much longer it may not have made it at all, and would have stood little to no chance of restarting the train on that grade.
    No doubt performances like this from 2P's were infrequent, but conversations I've had suggest that it wasn't just a one-off (no idea about the 2MT though).

    Nobody's trying to exagerate a 2P's capabilities, but they were perhaps stronger than many would expect at lower speeds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  16. Shed9C

    Shed9C New Member

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    Agreed, anything over 300tons on those gradients with a class 2 is certainly pushing your luck!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  17. 85Merlin

    85Merlin New Member

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    There has been a fair amount of comment about the Irish version. In case anyone doesn't know what they looked like I attach a picture of 74 - the one that has been preserved - in the form in which she ran in her last days. Above the running plate she is pure 2P, specially with that Stanier chimney. The boiler is a standard LMS G7S, as carried by the 2 Ps, but pressed, I think, at 170 psi rather than 180. Below the running plate, however, was a different machine. 74 had 6' drivers rather than the 2Ps 6'9"; the cylinders were 19" X 24", rather than 19"x26"; and the valve gear was Walschaerts , rather than Stephenson. The Irish engines tractive effort was 17388lbs, compared with the 2Ps 17388lbs. By the way, the Irish engines were universally known as Scotch engines because a number were built by North British in Glasgow.
    Ian Scotch Engine 74.jpg
     
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  18. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    A bit of thread drift but ...

    The interesting details about the Irish 4-4-0s made me wonder; what other locos used inside Walschaert's valve gear, I know Churchward did on his 4 cylinder designs, were there others?
     
  19. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    Nominal tractive effort figures are no doubt worked out from the dimensions of a new locomotive. During the course of its working life the cylinders will be re-bored and the driving wheel tyres turned, and thus it is perfectly feasible for the cylinders to be half an inch oversize and the driving wheels up to two inches less on diameter. This could have a marked difference on the actual tractive effort achieved.

    I have personally taken 318 tons with an Ivatt class 2 over the SVR for a day, and whilst the loco was working towards its upper limit there was never any sign of it being winded on the 1/100 gradients or on the steeper climb out of Highley, and there was always a bit left in reserve. As has been stated earlier a Class 2 locomotive may well be able to haul a heavy load up a steep gradient if it 'has a run at it' but would probably not be able to cope with the sustained effort over a long period. It would also make a big difference if it were a dry day and the loco had fully operational sanders.

    Andy
     
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  20. 8126

    8126 Member

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    Assuming you mean locos without outside valve gear as well (it's a very long list...) the one that immediately springs to mind is the LSWR D15 4-4-0, with outside admission piston valves above the cylinders. The LMS 7F 0-8-0 was another, although with inside admission valves. It may not be coincidental that Eric Langridge, who drew up the 7F, was LSWR trained, but with the 7F the valve gear being 'replaced' was the Joy valve gear of the LNWR 0-8-0's, rather than Stephenson's.
     
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