Midland and South Western Junction Railway

Hijacked ! - Take this thread to Hampshire !

Bob.

 

The difference - and my point, which you wilfully miss - is that those who started the NYMR/KWVR/MHR etc did so in a very different world to which all these 'new startup' schemes are now coming to life in. A time where spares were plentiful, visitor expectations were lower, where H&S red tape was much less thick for starters. So why not pool resources into a comparatively small number of lines which can be done to a supremely high quality than chucking a load more money at new projects?

Which is precisely why I don't see the point of it. You're not recreating Whitrope how it was, restoring the line to evoke that golden past of hallowed memories of the Waverley Route. You're changing the location entirely, which surely loses the magic of what Whitrope was all about?

As I have said in another thread, of course railways need people to survive. So - from the point of ensuring your operation survives - I see why these new developments have to take place. But I genuinely don't understand why you have chosen a location which was known and loved for its isolation and lack of development - and promptly built a load of new stuff that was never there before.

It's changing - dare I say it spoiling - the character of Whitrope forever... which brings me back to my original point. It's not a project to 'preserve' or evoke Whitrope as it was, it's a project to build a new railway just for the sake of building a new railway, to have your own 12" to the ft scale train set. . And if that means changing the character of the location completely, you don't appear to care that much?

Hear hear!

 

Something that may be relevant is that some people can find it quite hard to get involved with one of the big railways. The sheer size of the organisation can seem overbearing and from personal experience, a friendly welcome is certainly not guaranteed. Comments about if you come here you better know your place may not exactly encourage some folk. Helping getting a smaller outfit up and running can be far more rewarding for some people and may give them a better chance to find where their true abilities lie in helping run a preserved railway.

Edwin

 

And my point - which you ignore - is that they want to try to do it themselves, in the same way as the pioneers of the heritage movement did. Maybe it is a lot more difficult, but I imagine they have already realised that. It appears that Tony Graham lives close to Carlisle - maybe a lot of the others in the group do too. Just how much time and money do you think they should spend to drive all the way to the likes of KWVR or NYMR? The type of pooling of resources you suggest never really happened in the past and is even less likely now that transport costs have risen so high.

To return to the M&SWJR proposal - let them try.

 

People have been trying to make progress with a scheme on Anglesey to reopen the Amlwch branch for decades. They haven't got anywhere, yet the track is down and the stations mostly still exist. It isn't at all easy to get started these days.

I don't mean to diss anyone's recent project, and some have taken off, others are still embryonic. But there are two points I would make - at some point we will reach saturation and some schemes will close. And very few railways will be able to rely wholly or even as much on volunteers in the future as they do now. You should see how the volunteer numbers have fallen on some of the well established schemes. Health and safety becomes more onerous by the year, as do many other regulations, and whether rightly or not this alone is a major deterrent both to some existing volunteers who are used to just turning up and getting on with the job, and to younger people coming in who find something much nearer to their normal work environment, and thus less of an enjoyable release from the everyday stuff they do. I know of a railway that used to have 20+ regional supporters groups and is now down to 2.

The lack of heritage stock - carriages in particular - is going to be a serious problem as some of the stock of Mk1's irretrievably rust away. I was on a recent visit to a line - no names no pack-drill - which currently relies entirely on Mk1's, and every one of them was corroded and internally shabby. Things cannot go on like that for ever.

 

Indeed. Even the absolutely smallest possible heritage line probably needs about four coaches (two brakes and two ordinary coaches) to allow a two coach core set while also allowing for maintenance etc. I've heard figures of round about £100k for a thorough going overhaul of a Mark 1 - if you assume a life of about 20 years between overhauls (especially for carriages likely to spend most of their time outside), you are looking at a budget of around £20k per year just to keep those four carriages serviceable.

Add in say £1million per mile for trackwork. If you have a design life of, say, 40 years, that's £25k per year per mile for track.

A small steam engine would realistically cost about £500 per day to run if you really properly factored in the true overhaul costs. That's another £25k even if you only run one day at weekends. rather less if you have a small diesel instead, but that also makes things rather less attractive to the paying public.

There will be additional costs for maintenance of buildings, fences, ditches etc etc. And if you are setting up from scratch, all those facilities (including maintenance facilities, storage sidings etc), need to be built.

It's easy to imagine that a tiny line with no more than a mile of running line and a simple steam engine and two coaches shuttling up and down every Sunday - about as simple as you can get, and hardly any better than a site like Didcot for running opportunites, while a lot less impressive in terms of other things to see and do - would cost upwards of £150k per year to operate, even if you could find the volunteers to run it, and assuming you could actually find some rolling stock. That's 15,000 passengers paying a tenner each, or 300 per day for each operating day; or else (more likely - £10 sound sexpensive for that level of attraction) - 30,000 passengers, or 600 per day, paying a fiver. Economically, the numbers don't seem to stack up.

Tom

 

Passed through Andover the other day. The branch runs alongside and independently of the main line into Andover station, where there is an unused platform (with track) and some sidings. Some of the sidings run into the premises of a logistics firm, who occupy the eastern end of the yard, but these look out of use. The state of the rails on the branch suggests that traffic to Ludgershall is still running.

So basic infrastructure seems to be in place. Given that it’s all much more expensive and difficult than is used to be to set up a railway, the main problem would be to attract enough custom. You need Ludgershall to become a destination that will attract day trips from London and elsewhere. The Army Transport Museum is a good start. The map shows it's got a castle (is this any good?). What else could you do?

Good luck.

 

As much as I'd love to see this route (amongst others) I have to agree that resources could be better pooled into established railways. Surely it's just as nice to say "I helped to that" on various parts of a larger railway than "I did that" pointing a couple of hundred yards of track with a mk 2 and an 04? As to not getting a good welcome at established railways, the one I joined (the GWSR) I had a wonderful welcome from everyone, and whenever someone else joins, they always seem happy with the welcome they get.
If some people travel from devon to help at whitrope, why can't they help on the SDR, the WSR, GWSR (still a journey but no where near as long) any number of lines that are closer to them? As people have mentioned, yes, many preserved lines started off as 700 yards of track with an 04 shunter after BR mercilessly demolished everything (thinking GWSR again, I can't help it, that's where I volunteer) , equally many lines that got started with all the basic infrastructure in place but that was 20-30 years ago where mk 1s were still used on the mainline and were slowly being bought off of BR by the pres movement, which of course can't be done now. you need to be looking for a railway with surplus stock, and even then you'll only get some tatty unrestored vehicle that no one else wants, because if it was anything more, it would have been kept. I really do think the age of starting pres lines that will become a proper tourist attraction has ended.

then again, as others have said, if I am proved wrong about this particular sugestion or any other, I shall certainly be paying it a visit

Alex

 

Someone who works for the MOD was telling me the other day that t s all due to be closed and lifted before too long as the MoD are planning to redevelop the site as part of a "Supergarrison". Don't know why they wouldn't want a rail connection though.

 

A long time since I went to Ludgershall for the steam specials. There must be a reason why they finished. Does the MoD traffic from/to Didcot run regularly? I see there is a path on RTT. Would this traffic, if it continues, be compatible with a heritage line?

 

From what I've been told the MoD aren't keen to lose the railway connection to Ludgershall or lease the line to a heritage operation, but that discussions are still on-going

 

One thing that may be an option, if the MOD were interested to have a museum at Luggershal dedicated to military railways ,if the line was retained, it could be operated by a suitable group, Railway relaited exibits such as Gordon from the SVR, or another WD 2-10--0, and a former WD Austerity thats out of ticket could be repainted and displayed, if its rail conected large exibits such as didcots mogol could be part of visiting displays etc, i know of one S160 that would be very much at home and in working order, there are lots of former army items that survived and perhaps this may serve a greater education purpose as different time spans could be shown with suitable items, things like rails to the trenches, or using more modern setting the work of the transport regiment post d day .

 

Except that all those exhibits either belong to someone else, or have been entrusted to them as custodians. Why, for example, would the SVR want to send Gordon to a new scheme in Ludgershall, when it's currently tucked up safe and warm in a facility purpose built to look after out of ticket engines in an environment where the public can see them?

So unless the SVR spring Gordon, Didcot release their mogul (currently in BR black), whoever owns this S160 is happy for it to be co-opted, and those narrow gauge set-ups that already very successfully do "rails to the trenches" send everything they've got, what exactly is the point?

I also, being ex-forces myself, would suggest that the MoD's appetite for building museums is somewhere not unentirely adjacent to zero.

 

I hope those discussions include starting a Facebook page. That'll show 'em...

 

Yes indeed! IMHO this is yet another in the string of "wouldn't it be nice schemes. Save that it wouldn't really be "nice" at all, for the reasons quoted.

PH

 

IIRC there was a museum of army transportation at Beverley which was closed down several years ago.
Ray.

 

As per usual people mis understand what the point i was trying to make was and it was this, IF and i mean IF it was a desire of the army council to have a permanent museum of the transport corps to tell the history of the Royal Corps of Transport, then Luggershall may be a good place, and IF such a museum was to be built what other exhibits could be included IF the owners agreed to place them on loan engines and stock that would help to tell the story an active museum is always more interesting than a cold sterile one,
In no way was i advocating anything else, as regards " wouldn't it be nice " someone needs to change the record, its got a groove worn in it i am old enough to remember a certain railway running a diesel shunter and 2 coaches propelled to a muddy site, no station, no other facilities, someone once thought wouldn't it be nice to build a station, someone once thought wouldnt it be nice to build a refreshment room, wouldnt it be nice to overhaul more coaches, to build an preparation pit, to have a workshop, to buy the field next door, to buy the track , to build a workshop , wouldnt it be nice to have our terriers reboilered, wouldn't be nice to extend to smallbrook , wouldnt it be nice to accept an offer of 4 engines with no island history, GET MY POINT SOMEONE

 

Please don't shout. The line you refer to has been running for over forty years yet there is still much to be done. At times there is a distinct shortage of rolling stock and the early decision to eschew the (relatively) easy option of buying in stock from elsewhere does not make this quick to resolve. At the same time, the I.O.W.S.R. has had to resist observations from gricers of the "Wouldn't it be nice" to extend to Newport, Freshwater, Ventnor West, you name it, sort. Last of these was "wouldn't it be nice to take over Island Line". It would be great to drop the expression but until people stop popping up with proposals to save every last length of rusting rail then it won't be dropped.

Returning to the M. & S.W.J. remnant, quite nearby is an existing railway built on another section of the same old company, namely Swindon & Cricklade. One senses that line has not always had it easy, quite apart from arson attacks but it is there and probably eager to get more active help. Similarly, in the other direction, is the Mid Hants. No shortage of places to get actively involved then.

Lastly, see posts 53 and 56.

PH

 

I'm not involved, but it's being handled at local authority level, not by a small group of "wouldn't it be nice" individuals.

Incidentally, for those getting at Martin, I gather the MoD/Royal Artillery Museums Ltd are looking at sites around Ludgershall/Tidworth/Larkhill for the new Salisbury Plain Heritage Centre which will include the re-location of the entire Firepower Museum collection. The MoD also still owns the majority of the Museum of Army Transport collection from the now closed Beverley museum, so it could happen.

 

In my experience of vinyl, a groove is essential for the medium to work.

And therein, with the line "I am old enough", lies the issue. As Paul has pointed out - and as both he, I and others have pointed out on numerous occasions in other threads - those particular 'wouldn't it be nice' days are long, long gone. The world is a very different place now and railway preservation is a very different animal.

If you would take a moment to stop looking at the current world through the rose-tinted lens of your past that you clearly feel so much nostalgic affection for, maybe you might actually get ours? Getting frustrated because the modern world no longer conforms to what was possible in the days of your fond memories won't change anything.