Best & Worst Locos to Drive

While I'd agree, this is more an issue in the preservation era, where you are quite likely to find idiots trespassing on the line ahead of you. Prior to 1968, forward visibility was less of an issue, although there was still some need for it. On the main line, a driver drove on the signals. If he passed a green four-aspect MAS on green, he knew that the next three sections at least are clear, if double yellow, then the next two sections, and single yellow means that the next section is clear. Once he had sighted - and acted on if necessary - the signal he did not need to keep a careful eye on the track ahead. He might need to tell his fireman to sight a signal on the fireman's side for him, but once seen the fireman can go back to his normal duties.

 

Not so for normal passenger trains. Limit is 25mph. I'm not saying it wasn't exceeded but it shouldn't have been. Of course, a smaller wheeled engine is better at appearing faster than it is by making lots of noise.

 

Sir Berkeley has just a weather board and a lot of crews hate it on hot sunny days as there is no hiding place from the sun. Not everyone is a sun lover.

 

The GCR and all other heritage railways are limited to 25 mph max. Whether fact or fiction, saying that they do 40 mph on ordinary service trains is likely to get someone into hot water. Perhaps your method of timing was poor? After all, you've needed to ask how drivers judge their speed so you can't really have much idea, yourself?

 

Steve - Big apologies for my ill informed replies, just guessing which as it turns out was wrong. I didn't mean to rub anybody up the wrong way, shall think ahead in future before writing anything.

Back on topic however, does coal quality affect performance for a loco??? I'd guess it probably would as if you get poor quality stuff it's at a guess potentially not going to burn hot enough.

Where do pres lines get their coal anyhow nowadays? I've heard from fellow enthusiasts rumours that a lot is apparently imported from either poland or germany.

 

Of course the makeup of the coal has a big effect on performance what would you expect! Its not just its calorific value that effects its performance remember coal is not a homogenous material and for example its ash content can have a big effect on how it performs, other elements will also alter how it burns. Whilst one could write a book about it, here is not the place and a look within one of the many books on the subject will give you a starter for ten. Try this P23 onwards:

http://www.searchengine.org.uk/dailyebook/Handbook for Railway Steam Locomotive Enginemen.pdf

Take a good look through the rest of this book and your questions may be less "ill informed" in future, but if you get lost in it all please ask.

 

Not sure that's totally fair - it's the responsibility of a driver to manage his or her speed, if they get in trouble for breaking the limit its their fault, not the fault of the person that points it out...

Can't say I've ever tried timing, so no idea how easy it is to be accurate!


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I think @Steve's point is fair - since accurate judgement of speed is not particularly easy without going to some degree of effort or having considerable experience, making a casual comment about an alleged (but unproven) speed well in excess of 25mph is setting unnecessary hares running, without the railway or driver concerned having any opportunity of a defence. If you had robust evidence of speeding, there would be better channels to go through than making a comment on a random forum, I'd suggest.

Tom

 

Maybe so... I'm happy to be wrong, but I don't think saying 'I've travelled at 40mph on the Great Cental' is the same as saying 'I travelled behind the 8F on Friday for the 10:40 departure from Loughborough and we attained 46mph between Rothley and Quorn...' (Not sure if those are even in the right order!) I'm not convinced a broad statement is dangerous in the same way that talking specifics is... Still think the responsibility is the driver's, rather than the person reporting it.

Ironically though, if it was a specific train then the driver would have more of a chance to defend himself!

I take your point though, and I've got no idea how difficult it is to judge speed as a driver. If my experience in 00 as a child is anything to go by I'd have a fair chance of causing multiple high speed crashes!




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There is a previous thread which deals with coal quality. As I recall it, there is little point in having a very hot coal if the fusion temperature of the ash is low, leading to dramatic clinkering when the regulator is shut.

Not all coal is imported. The Ffos y Ffran open cast pit at Merthyr is favoured by at least two steam railways.

PH

 

HMRI (ORR) will quite happily tell you that they read forums such as this and view the likes of Facebook & Youtube. You, as an enthusiast, may like your trains to run at speeds higher than they are permitted but a sure way to get people into hot water is to go broadcasting it on the Internet or elsewhere. Whether it is factual or not, thee is rarely smoke without fire.

 

Fair enough... To be honest I'm not fussed at all about trains running faster, I'm quite happy to stick to the limit! And I obviously don't want to see anybody getting into trouble. The point I was trying to make though, was that if somebody does break the rules and gets themselves into hot water - it's ultimately their fault, not the fault of the person that mentions it. Not saying anybody should try to get anybody in the mud!

Anyhow, this is probably getting way off topic now and I've said more than I meant to - I'm quite happy to let it go!



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The WSR uses Welsh opencast coal mostly.
Even so it varies from seam to seam as evidenced by the ash content and the amount of clinker. It's also quite friable so it makes dust quite easily. That said it's fairly slow burning and slow to ignite compared to the very high volatile coal that we previously used. This is referred to as "Russian" around the WSR but could just as easily be Polish.

 

I was riding in the rear of a DMU on the WSR last year. While the driver certainly used the full power away from stations, without exception the speedo stopped at 25 and no faster

 

I believe the coal we use at Audley End Railway is also from there - the sacks are certainly marked as Welsh steam coal (and the current batch seems to burn quite nicely with little clinker

Stu

 

You are correct that coal quality varies from seam to seam but I thought that Ffos y Fran coal was only coming from one seam? Clinker formation can be a product of the fireman. It is essentially molten ash. The fusion temperature of ash can vary, depending on its chemical composition. Low fusion temperature ash will almost certainly clinker and even coals with a high ash fusion temperature can be made to clinker, especially if the fire irons are used indiscriminately on a hot fire. Short term gain and long term pain if you use them in such circumstances.
A lot of the coal used on heritage railways comes from the Ayrshire coalfield in Scotland. One of the main suppliers, Hargreaves, imported 30,000 tons of russian coal when Scottish Coal went bust a couple of years ago but I think this is now all used up and Hargreaves have recently been supplying Ayrshire coal from Killoch.. It has a high volatile content (i.e. it is smokey) but is generally reasonable with regard to ash content.
There are other suppliers, of course!!

 

There was a T.V. programme recently regarding the Taff valley which, inter alia, featured the Ffos y Fran operation. It is such a size that clearly it taps more than one seam. I was told once that it tapped the coal resources of the old Ogilvie Colliery, which was one of the "big names" for loco. coal in the past.

The previous thread referred to earlier stated that railway companies in the past specified individual seams which had ash content with a high fusion temperature/ Such luxuries are never likely to return but Ffos y Fran seems to do well/

PH

 

Paul, Ogilvie colliery was about four miles away from Ffos y fran, but it could be the same coal seams at both.

 

Immediately after after I made that original post I recalled that locos for export to hot countries had cabs before a lot of the home railways did, often of just the roof on four pillars type or spacious wooden cabs with large unglazed windows.

 

Regarding heat on the footplate, comment is often made about Bulleid pacifics. Well they are hot to be on. I once put a garden max/min type thermometer behind my seat (so it would record air temp rather than radiant heat) on Blackmoor Vale. It got to 115 F.
You can keep it manageable by not over filling the tender so you can have the upper doors open for a breeze, learning to get good at fireing to use minimal effort, keeping the piggin' firehole doors shut unless you are putting coal and getting off the footplate at every opportunity as well as the usual hydration and so on.
I think it is worse for the Driver as you are at the controls all the time unless parked. The Fireman can stand at the cab door for a breeze.
FWIW I find BR Std 4 tanks as least as hot as the pacifics for the Driver.
I'm sure the footplate men from BR days might wonder what the fuss is about, but our guys are often older, not doing it every day and we don't go fast enough for a good cooling wind.

Russ.