Cumbrian Coast Express 9/4/16

I do hope for all involved that such a clause will not be put to the test. Whilst I have occasionally expressed concerns with some aspects of RTC's methods I do firmly believe that their integrity is strong enough not to try and rely on such a clause in order to avoid refunds. It has already been made clear (again by Ralph) that a coach both suitable and available was present at Carnforth. It is similarly clear that the Train Manager (whether an RTC employee or volunteer I don't know) made efforts on leaving Euston to arrange a solution. Accepting that these facts are correct it surely follows that WCR should shoulder the responsibility and the costs involved. It would seem unfair for RTC to be out of pocket to the tune of £3000+, but even more iniquitous to expect the blameless strandeees to shoulder the loss. Hopefully a swift response to Mr & Mrs Oswald T Wistle will settle any such doubts quickly.

Although not really a parallel situation your recollections from 1977 interest me. Whilst I think the actions of those who went to Bamford were somewhat unwise and your general concerns for railway timekeeping commendable it does strike me that perhaps, as you were given the opportunity, you could have been a little more charitable?
That said I recall a similar incident in 1984 where a tour participant left the train at Ribblehead and, by arrangement with a motorist friend, intended to rejoin at the booked Chinley photostop. Unfortunately the tour was diverted by way of Crewe so not only failed to stop at Chinley it failed even to pass through. I remember the occasion well as I was on the train, destination Plymouth!

 

I am not sure why this needs so much debate.... WCRC contracted with RTC to provide X coaches but only supplied Y, therefore there will be a claim as per the contract for recompense to RTC.

Passengers contracted with RTC to travel on train but couldn't, therefore there will be a claim as per the contract for recompense to passengers.

@Oswald T Wistle promised to take his wife on a train which was not delivered... no idea how the compensation for that will pan out!

As per the logistics of it all, I suspect I know as much about what was viable as do the vast majority on here, no idea about the Southall end but getting passengers to Carnforth and a coach added is not as easy as many seem to think (and none of the experts have answered the questions I have posted earlier regarding the logistics of this) - @RalphW who was on the train has tried to outline the process of which he was aware and been shouted down by many apparently much better informed, which to me says more about those posters entrenched attitude to RTC or WCRC than any perceived bias on the part of the original poster.

Ultimately the issues regarding this tour only concern three groups, WCRC, RTC and the Passengers, the rest of us are just wasting hot air on something which doesn't not concern us.

 

Thanks for the correction Ralph.

I'm not sure whether this should be seen as a positive in terms of WCR being so busy they have nothing in reserve, or a negative sign given that even after an enforced period of not operating their serviceable stock is so depleted. However that discussion is probably best left to another, more general, thread.

 

Or option C, they had serviceable stock at Carnforth that could not be extracted without a very long winded shunting exercise, Carnfoth may be a very large site with plenty of siding space, but it suffers from a hell of a bottleneck at the northern end to extract anything?

 

At 09.30 this morning I emailed a letter to RTC outlining some of the issues that I felt needed to be addressed. At 11.30 the phone rang, I answered it and a man said, "Hello, this is David Smith", I nearly fell out of my chair. It turned out to be someone selling gutters and fascias - now that would have been a result!

About 14.15 I had a long conversation with a well-informed and helpful lady at RTC (Karen?) - this was my call and their call back. They had read my letter and were aware of most of my concerns, had held a management meeting on Saturday and written out to all affected passengers (not arrived in today's post).

Salient Points - Adding another coach at Carnforth was a real possibility, at least earlier in the journey. RTC decided to allow those in the jettisoned coach to sit elsewhere, after all another coach was to be added, and this would avoid the chaos of turning people away who had been allocated seats in the affected coach.

It later transpired that a currently certified carriage was not available at Carnforth and this was no longer an option. The proposal to allow people to stand was vetoed as current regulations require every passenger to be allocated a seat. When I said that there were often 20 or 30 people standing around at any one time she re-stated that people were only allowed to stand whilst walking to and from the toilets, buffet etc - window hanging is NOT allowed. (Window hangers be afraid, if they can leave passengers on platforms, they can turf naughty boys off the train!).

Communications at Preston: apparently some passengers were given the message that for operational reasons the train won't be stopping at the station, how and by who wasn't made clear. We and others near us certainly never got that message. She did understand the conflict between seeing "cancelled" on a screen and seeing the train head north on RTT. She accepted that RTC's communication at Preston needs to improve and promised that there will be an RTC rep available at Preston for Saturday's trip with RS. The Train Manager had planned to stop in Preston and explain to the affected passengers (well done him!) but this was vetoed by the WCRC guard who feared frayed tempers and passengers (now without seats) attempting to force their way onto the train.

RTC had already decided to treat all affected passengers the same (details in letter), money back or transfer to next Saturday. I did my best; good customer, very upset, tickets were a Christmas present (which they were) to get something more (and I said that I thought that they owed their customers more than that) but as they'd already dealt with other passengers - I wasn't going to get too far, not without taking them to court and I've enough to do. She seemed sure that their terms and conditions would stand examination in court, I told her that was not a commonly held view - we need a volunteer!

Mrs W has something on next Saturday (football) and has vowed never again to have anything to do with RTC so, I opted for 1 seat on the Scot Commemorative (at CCE price less the £10 for WCRC being back in business - well sort of back!) and a cash (credit card) refund of the balance. My out of pocket expenses were just over half a litre of diesel and a £4 car park ticket, so I'm OK. I hope that no-one at Preston had huge out of pocket expenses.

RTC were very apologetic, as they had to be. Ralph was right all along (for reasons that he was unable to make explicit at the time). All decisions had some logic to them. WCRC need to have some resilience. Nobody died. We are all older and wiser(?). Now for Saturday, first find the RTC rep., second persuade the train to stop, third expect an even better climb than last week (with what might or might not be a heavier load). BUT NO STANDING!!!

 

That little saga has made me even less likely to travel on mainline steam again, no standing unless walking to the toilet or buffet. What about stopping to talk to other passengers? Sorry but much as I would like to I'm not parting with good money to be treated like a naughty schoolboy.

 

Perhaps, I put undue emphasis on things, I think that the etc might apply to conversations. Please do not take offence as a result of how I might have expressed things. I was trying to recall a conversation that lasted over 30 mins which started from standing without an allocated seat, thru' long term standing (near windows). On a trip, I've never been treated like a naughty schoolboy, I've seen one or two who behaved like one!

 

No offence at all its just that the last time I travelled I felt a bit that way and it seems nothing has changed despite Mr Ward's window bars being long gone

 

Thanks for that, I've reported. Time to move on, flying out to the Bahamas tomorrow for a meeting of the shell company board lol. More like some washing and cleaning to free up time for Saturday.

 

A lot to be said for a bar on a train!

 

Thanks Oswald. Your strapline seems extrordinarily apposite.

My reaction at 1030 on Saturday was in true Richard Wilson fashion 'I do not believe it.'

My reaction today is exactly as yours, in fact I used the very words in a PM earlier 'Nobody died.'

Peter

 

We now know that RTC are giving full refunds (with the option of transfer to another trip). That is surely the minimum that they can do to avoid a legal challenge. They should be able to recover a good bit of the money from WCRC. For the sake of good will they could have decided to go further, for example to reimburse people's expenses in getting to and from Preston or to offer a discount on another trip. They have chosen not to do so. In the light of that we can choose whether to book with them in future or to follow Mrs W's lead.

 

At the end of the day, it was really just a very late notice cancellation as far as Preston passengers were concerned, so a full refund of the fare paid is really the only likely outcome. Reimbursing people's travel expenses may be a nice gesture of goodwill, but it would set a precedent which no tour promoter could afford to offer on a regular basis as it could lead to loads of claims for pre-booked hotels or advance rail tickets when tours are cancelled through no fault of the promoter (and we know how many of those there are).

 

I don't think that it will be enforced that literally. it's the lobbyists and window hangers the want to control.

 

A few more photographs:

Beckhouses



Eeskmeals

Richard

 

As I understand it, compensation for travel expenses and cancelled accommodation is only legally required if the travel and accommodation is part of a package. That would only apply to tours such as the GB.

 

I have successfully obtained refunds simply by saying that I will contact the credit card company for failure to provide what was sold. T&Cs have tumbles at that assertion. I would guess that no tour operator wants either a credit card company to withdraw facilities or a successful Small Claims Court Case on record against them. Precedent is a dangerous thing. From experience, travellers at Preston do not seem to have long journeys and consequently low costs that mean a further and higher challenge may look trivial and vexatious. However if anyone had travelled distance and had accommodation expenses on top of the trip, I would be confident of my position taking this before a District Judge.

Mr W has enlightened us all. And as others have stated, let's hope lessons have been learned. Maybe given the success of DBC on the Midday Scot, RTC will be inclined to share their work out and make it a competitive market.

 

presumably if hotel accommodation is involved you could make a claim against any holiday insurance you might have?