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Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Grashopper

    Grashopper Member

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    Even if they were the same size wheels, you have to take account of axle journal sizes, potential differences in crank axles, big ends, valve eccentrics and numerous other things. Not as straightforward as a wheelset swap on a carriage!
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed, and despite the superficial similarity caused by the Wainwright "makeover" of the O1, it's worth remembering that mechanically, the O1 is a product of SER / Ashford practice, whereas the C is in essence an enlarged LCDR / Longhedge B class. So without having measured up, I wouldn't be surprised that there would be enough differences particularly around the crank axle and layout of the motion to make them incompatible.

    Tom
     
  3. Charles Parry

    Charles Parry Member

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    If it is only the tyres, could she be kept warm and dry and then steamed on the 50th anniversary? Just some light engine moves around Sheffield Park or something might be nice, sort of how Stepney ended her ticket.
     
  4. Grashopper

    Grashopper Member

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    It's certainly not worth entertaining re-tyring a locomotive this close to the end of a ticket, unless its going straight in for overhaul. The lead times for new tyres will not be short, and they will be expensive. Yet another expense to add to 592s next overhaul... I feel privileged that I was able to take this picture -
     

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  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    With absolutely no knowledge of the actual condition of the tyres I wonder what criteria has been used to make this decision and on what basis this criteria is applied? What I'm getting at is that BR applied a criteria beyond which tyres were condemned but, in times past, there was a lot of discretion in applying this. The wheel rail interface gets more critical as speed increases and, at 25 mph, there is a lot more leeway in tyre and rail profile. I have seen some pretty horridly worn tyres in my time but they haven't generally become a problem until they are double flanged or the flange gets excessively thinned.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Apparently to pay for "the rough castings, machining and transport". I suspect it is more of an indicative cost to set a target for fundraising rather than a firm quotation as of yet.

    See here: http://wainrightsfinestsecr27.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/march-update.html

    Have to say, I'm quite looking forward to 27, whenever she is finished, having had numerous good days on both 178 and 323. I'd have to check the records, but I think of Bluebell locos that have steamed in preservation, 27 has been out of traffic the longest, since the early 1970s.

    Tom
     
  7. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    For a start the O1's wheels do not have balance weights, there are loads of pictures on the interwebs. The SECR kept the loco's because of the low axle weight allowing their use on lightly laid track. This makes the loco pretty 'lively' at anything over about 30mph in second valve. Don't ask me how I know. The motion is very similar to the H class. I'd need to take measurements to see if they are identical. The C has a different layout. The axleboxes are a larger version of that fitted to the P tanks although the P ones are marked 'Experimental' and are a bronze box with white metal pockets so there might be differences.
    So not at all possible for a wheelset swap.

    As for the Wainwright makeover as Tom puts it, I'd like to see a set of O drawings next to the O1's. I bet it's just about the frames and wheels which are the original features.

    Russ.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm slightly surprised, given that the loco was passed by an independent VAB for an 80 mile round trip on the mainline only last month. So far the only comment has been from Paul (I assume picked up while on the photo charter this week), so for the time being I'm waiting for an official confirmation.

    Had various good days on the C if it does prove she is out of traffic, including a training turn some years back where it started to click about how to fire Chatham engines, and a highly entertaining day just before Christmas on a Reindeer special, mostly in the dark, with a five coach vintage load, which may turn out to have been my last day on her for a while.

    Roll on the O1!

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
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  9. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    The C was due to haul a photo charter today with the goods ( originally planned to be Coal Tank and Obo) and it was going to be the E4 again ( subject to getting it's brakes fixed - problem late afternoon yesterday).
     
  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Thanks for the response. I'm interested because I know of two locos that may well require very similar cylinder blocks and my finger in the air stab was about £30-35K. I prefer the Bluebell's finger in the air stab although I not that you did not mention a pattern.
     
  11. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    A question perhaps for Tom: With 34059 a year late and 592 withdrawn earlier than anticipated, will the Bluebell hae sufficient engines of the right sizes to get through the year? I don't get the impression that 80151, 65 or 928 will be ready any time soon.
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I guess it is not ideal, but it's a better position than a few years ago!

    I suspect that when the 2016 mileages are known, 73082, 847, 541 and 263 will have done the vast bulk of the mileage. (847 and 263 were top last year, with 541 third having only been bought into service during the year). There have been a few occasions this year when the daytime GA and WR services have been combined into a single train, swapping two medium engine duties for one large engine duty; I wouldn't be surprised if that practice doesn't happen more frequently through the year, since it better matches the duties to the available motive power, and saves on loco mileage and boiler cycles.

    Tom
     
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  13. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Thanks Tom. It certainly places a considerable demand on the four engines you mention, but all four have been outshopped fairly recently and have performed reliably, so hopefully all will be well.
     
  14. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    Would you really run an engine knowing its tyres are worn below the limit? Really?
    If the loco derailed with a passenger train how would you explain that?
    "Oh they used to do it like that on BR all the time."
    A lot of accidents are a concatenation (love that word!) of events.
    The RAIB report might read some thing like 'Locomotive xxx was put into service after an exam during which it was found the tyre on the left leading wheelset was found to be worn beyond its service limit.'
    Ewwww.
    One of the wisest things said to me at Bluebell is 'What do you say at the inquiry?'
    Oh and 592 ran like a sewing machine on the ECML at 35 mph!

    Russ.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I stand by what I said. Wheel tyres don't become dangerous once an extra couple of thous have worn beyond the limit, especially when that limit is the same for a vehicle doing 100 mph and one doing 25 mph.. A good engineer will take a view and make a decision based on the law, his knowledge and experience.
    However, as I said, I have no knowledge of what criteria was used to make the decision, I merely wondered, as is my wont.
     
  16. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    With tyres on the limit, would the major worry be the movement of tyres on the wheel centres due to heat generated when braking, especially heavy braking?
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That's largely a function of tyre thickness, not profile, though. And that subject can open up a whole new can of worms, as BR found out when they started painting white indicator lines on tyres. It wasn't generally a perceived problem until that started.
    At least LNER locos didn't generally have such problems.
     
  18. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    On a recently published YouTube video she did not sound at all "well" so perhaps there is another reason.

    PH
     
  19. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    I assume that the C having recently been into KX it would have had its tyres gauged then prior to being moved over NR metals, and that they would have had to conform to the MT276 minimums (or an equivalent std). That being the case, tis very sudden to have withdrawn her for tyre wear isn't it? Has someone put flats on it and the tyres are already at minimum size??
     
  20. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    I have also heard that 592 was a bit fragile and required gentle handling.

    It's last overhaul was during a period when standards were not quite as high as during the last 12 months.

    What is the next loco due to be outshopped from SK? The O1? Stowe's boiler is a mighty complex job that seems to get more extensive the more metal is removed. There doesnt seem to be a date for return of Archie's boiler and it is dragging on a bit.

    I can see the IOWSR Ivatt going to the Bluebell for awhile!

    Cheers,
    Julian
     

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