White disks on the front of steam locomotives

Thanks Tom, when I said "someone" I had you in mind!

I have a GER general appendix and sundry weekly signalling and traffic notices and these have a surprising amount of operating detail regarding "foreign" lines that the GE regularly worked over, particularly the SECR and LBSCR, reached via the East London Joint Line (Thames Tunnel) which was owned by those three companies plus the Metropolitan. The detail includes signalling alterations, notified on a weekly basis. I shall have to look through them to see if "foreign" lamp codes are mentioned- it will have to wait until I get a minute, though.

 

Of course these codes were not unique, they depended on context. So that code meant something entirely different if seen leaving London Bridge or Victoria, than it did if running out of Waterloo.

 

If you study the codes as per the link above, (post 19) it seems to show that trains from the SER or LCDR had to change their lamps at Ludgate Hill when travelling towards the GNR. I didn't get as far as looking for GER destinations, but I expect the same applied.

 

Indeed, but I wasn't quick-witted enough to say it was actually Oxted and Lewes via Haywards Heath!

It must have been quite a feat of analysis to work out a system that ensured every variation of route was covered (or at least all those in regular use, including to / from depots) but at the same time make sure there was no ambiguity where the same code was used for different routes. I suspect that is why over a long period the system got simpler: it is easy to imagine that in the early days, every route called for a different code, but over time, people realised you could combine codes provided you didn't create geographic ambiguities.

Tom

 

On the other hand if you did have duplicate codes on different routes, in theory if a train did get routed incorrectly it could end up getting really lost...
In practice presumably the driver would stop at the next signal box if he wasn't on the road he expected. Somehow reminds me of Bill Morgan's story about the light ROD claiming to be going to Fishguard on the Neyland line.

 

The rule book required (requires?) a driver to stop if wrongly routed, before taking the wrong route. These codes helped signalmen by allowing the man at the box before a junction to send an appropriate junction bell code to the next box in time for the bobby at the junction to signal it accordingly. There were exceptions, such as that trains between North Kent East junction and Dartford were allowed to take a route other than that scheduled, provided that they were not booked to stop at any stations before the routes rejoined. If a driver got as far as the next signal box before stopping I think he'd have been for the high jump.

 

No, it as so participants on photo-charters could whinge and moan about incorrect route indications!

Not as bad as these though.....(apologies to the Mid-Hants)

R.A.T. by Arle Images, on Flickr

 

The Eastern Region at least had some locos (ex-GNR J52 tanks, and probably others) fitted with the extra lamp irons to enable a Southern headcode to be displayed on interregional trains around London. I also recall reading somewhere that in the West Country SR trains working over the GWR would carry the appropriate GWR code from the last SR station before accessing the GWR, until the first station back on the SR. I don't think this applied, though, for SR trains working over the GWR between Exeter St Davids and Cowley Bridge junction, or similarly when working through Plymouth North Road en route to Friary.

 

I have had a look at the relevant pages of the 1905 GER General Appendix. To say it's complex is a gross understatement!
There are 18 pages of instructions regarding Distinguishing Head Lights and Discs, with 12 pictorial diagrams of loco front ends per page. The first two pages are of the familiar standard train description codes (disc or lamp over both buffers, express pass., breakdown train etc., single disc/lamp below chimney, ordinary pass., discs or lamps on all brackets, royal and so on) and the rest are route codes. At that date the main colours used were white and green, though purple and red were also employed, though this seems to have been simplified later. As to "foreign" company's engines, SE&CR, LB&SCR and LT&SR locos, which normally used discs on their home lines, were to use discs when on the GE, interlopers from the LT&S had also to carry a board marked "LT&SR" below the chimney. Midland engines working in the London area used white discs but coloured lamps, lit day and night. Midland, LNWR, GNR and M&GN engines (which didn't carry discs) working over GER lines in the Cambridge, Peterborough and Kings Lynn areas (are you keeping up?) were to use appropriate lamps, lit at all times. And we havn't even touched on workings over the Met, LD&ECR, NER......... And those old boys had to keep all that stuff and lots more, in their heads!

 

Fascinating stuff.

 

They certainly don't look as silly as a slightly askew frame holding boards painted with letters and numbers on the smokebox

 

Not involved with the line, but from the headcode key posted and the line history of use for diversions there's a lot of scope for variation. There's a Waterloo-Southampton via Alton code (top and mid-right, facing forwards). Alton-Southampton for push pull trains (mid left, bottom centre, same as the Bluebell line code). Plenty of '60s pictures of Waterloo-Bournemouth trains diverting via the line (bottom right, mid left), and arguably you could put up a Waterloo-Plymouth code (top and bottom centre) diverting via Alton-Southampton-Romsey-Salisbury. Oh, and trains terminating Portsmouth & Southsea (not via Guildford) would also have been possible (middle left and right).

Presumably when diversions were in place notices were put out alerting signalmen to the influx of oddly-coded visitors.

 

A bit of thread resurrection, for @flaman if no-one else.

I was looking through old LBSCR photos to try to see how common it was to run with a combination of discs and lamps (answer: very common) when I came across the attached photo. It purports to show K class mogul B352 which, if true (i.e. if it really has that number) would place the photo in early post-grouping days. The photo was taken at Hassocks.

What caught my eye was the pair of lamps on the left-hand irons, one facing forwards and one backwards. I did wonder if it was a code associated with shunting. However, another photo I have shows a Billinton B2x on a Pullman express ca. 1912 also having forward and backward facing lamps on the left irons (as well as a plain disc and a cross disc on the right and yet another lamp under the chimney, but that's a different story...)

Anyone know the reason?



The use of combinations of discs and lamps certainly continued well into Southern Railway days. I have one BR-era photo also showing the practice, though whether by then it was still part of the rule book, or just an old-time driver continuing to do things the way he always had in the past I don't know.

Incidentally, from pictorial evidence, in Brighton days there seem to have been at least five patterns of disc - plain white; white with cross; white with (green?) dot in the centre; white with two black diamonds and a square disc with black and white horizontal stripes - as well as lamps carried. In addition they occasionally carried what look like train reporting numbers on plain rectangular or round discs. To echo Flaman above, quite how the locomotive crew of the day were supposed to set the correct code I don't know!

Tom

 

Of course it may be a mundane reason. Perhaps there was nowhere in the cab to safely stow a lamp not in use, so the easiest place would be to put it on the front, but facing backwards do that it didn't count as part of the code. In the same way that GWR locos had brackets on the running plate for lamps to face sideways when not needed.

 

At one time GWR lamps had diamonds and letter 'S's painted on the sides so they could be turned sideways in the square sockets then used to display the symbols for different types of train and in some cases which line they were on.

At one time the Taff Vale Railway used a combination of discs and lamps indicating destinations.

 

I did wonder about that. However, I also have a photo in early Bluebell days in which Stepney is waiting to depart from Sheffield Park and also carries a rear-facing lamp on the high buffer lamp iron. It would seem odd on a short line to go off shed with more lamps than you needed! Whereas the fact that at the time the railway could call on several people with pre-grouping operational knowledge makes me lean somewhat towards the fact that a rear-facing lamp had a specific meaning - but if so, I don't know what.

Tom

 

and here they are being adjusted at West Byfleet in 2014



disk action starts at 2:15

 

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As lamps weren't lit in daylight a reversed light could easily be assigned a meaning. Or perhaps the code specified a pair of lamps and it was thought that reversing the upper one in daylight made it more apparent? Any photos of pairs of lamps both facing forward on similar locos?

 

Plenty, but for reference, here are two on similar trains to those referenced above, but with pairs of forward-facing lamps: one a K class mogul on a freight; the other an express passenger engine on a Pullman service:

- One of a K class mogul on a freight train (as above): two white discs on the right-hand buffer lamp irons (low and high); two lamps, both facing forwards, on the left-hand buffer lamp irons. (left / right as viewed from the cab looking forwards). Late LBSCR period (i.e. after the First World War).

- H2 Atlantic 426 on the Southern Belle Pullman: two lamps facing forward on the left-hand lamp irons; cross (upper) and plain disc (lower) on the left hand lamp irons; a third lamp above the draw hook. Middle LBSCR period (i.e. immediately pre- First World War).

There's also one of an H1 Atlantic on what is described as an empty stock train: two lamps facing forward on the left-hand irons; two plain discs on the right hand irons; a third lamp over the draw hook and a fourth lamp under the chimney ...

Just picking up on your though about lamps not being lit in daylight: I wonder if the code simply called for two lamps, but some drivers preferred to put the upper one on backwards during the day as it meant the lower one could be put on / removed without fouling the upper one - especially if the code had to be changed en-route?

Tom