If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Welsh Mountaineer, 4th August

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Steamage, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    3,510
    But a five coach train--- what would that be? One POB, one and a half firsts, half a pantry, and two standard. Think of the break even fares. This is Blaenau we're talking about, not Venice.

    How do those tractive effort sums work for 48151?
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Rather more favourably. The loco weight is more or less the same as a Black 5, so the resistance on the gradient is broadly similar, but you have about 32,500lbf of TE rather than 25,500lbf.

    In fact, the gravitational pull on a Black 5 + 6 coaches on a 1 in 36 gradient was equal to 86% of the nominal TE. If you got up to 86% of the nominal TE of an 8F, you would be up to a load of about 8.5 coaches. So an 8F + 8 should have slightly more in hand than a Black 5 + 6 on the same gradient, at least in TE terms, the boiler capacity is similar. But this doesn't seem to be a situation where the loco was up against its steaming limit. Being prudent, an 8F + seven gives you rather more seats than a Black 5 + five.

    Tom
     
    30567 likes this.
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,165
    On 17-10-1999 The Slate Miner was split at Llandudno Junction, with each Std 4 tank taking (I think) 5* coaches. The first train had several goes but kept stalling when it reached the bit with sharp curvature as well as the steep gradient. Then the second loco worked up light to bank the first train. After watering at Blaenau, both locos ran back down to collect the second train. There's an account at http://www.zen70752.zen.co.uk/bat/out/miner/index.htm (and a second page) from someone who was on the second train.

    I was on the first train that day AND on the one that stalled on 5-8-2009; but not on yesterday's, so you can't blame me as a jinxer.

    I can only agree that this was a classic case of too many coaches for the loco and line, and a lamentable failure to learn from previous embarrassing (and probably expensive) incidents. But then, as someone said, "The only thing we learn from history is that people don't learn from history".

    Edit, only 4 each
     
  4. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,046
    Likes Received:
    15,736
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I note that this is the only one running this year with the other two being cancelled - I suspect this is another itinerary which will vanish as being nonviable in the future.
     
  5. henrywinskill

    henrywinskill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    3,537
    Occupation:
    Transgender toilet attendant
    Location:
    North East
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A maroon number possibly a onesie with West Coast badge,:Drool:
     
  6. henrywinskill

    henrywinskill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    3,537
    Occupation:
    Transgender toilet attendant
    Location:
    North East
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Please dont mention the drivers name on here lol
     
    royce6229 likes this.
  7. royce6229

    royce6229 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    New Forest
    I forgot about that run, the one I was referring to was 02/05/1998 when 80079 never got to Blaenau, the following day they left two coaches behind and 80079 took 4 coaches through to Blaenau.
     
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,446
    Likes Received:
    9,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There is the crux of this matter, the loco did not stall, she slipped to a stand due to the adverse weather and rail head conditions, she set back after the first attempt sanding all the way and on the second attempt got a good bit further, in fact within a quarter of a mile of where the gradient eases. It was then decided that, with various factors to be taken into account, a third attempt was not possible.
     
  9. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    It would be viable with a more suitable loco as previously performed well or a dreaded assisting diesel.
     
  10. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    is 48151 knackered ?, that seems the logical weapon of choice for this itinary, Blaenau is well know as a b*****d of a route so something high powered and sure footed with not a huge load should be a requirement.
     
  11. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Last reported under repair, obviously not complete in time for the job its most needed for. Which is a pity.
     
  12. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    The K4 is an even better choice, especially designed to work passenger trains on difficult routes. That is why it was built, that is what it does. If it had worked either of the two trains that are under the microscope at the present moment no discussion would be taking place.
     
    26D_M likes this.
  13. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    7,688
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The K4 was hard at work elsewhere yesterday, and, judging by the very pleasant and unfussed way she took 7 up 3 1/2 miles of 1 in 49 on Monday, showing how adept at hill climbing she really is. However, a stronger loco but with lots of L/E mileage to do a one-off job when regular work is available elsewhere doesn't make such trips any more viable, I would suggest!

    Steven
     
    Sheff, Jamessquared and 26D_M like this.
  14. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    I understand what you mean. But looking at what occurred on the network and the selection of what was inadequate motive power it is hard to escape the view that some providers of locomotives do not have an adequate pool of resources. Sadly this kind of action will not win the steam movement any friends in the long term. A loaned Black Five would accomplish all that has been asked of the 2-6-0 while it has been at the NYM, and though the regular earnings without light engine mileage may seem attractive having engines out on the mainline carrying out work without a close on 100% certainty that they will be able to succeed in accomplishing what is being required of them is foolish and short sighted.
    So, was the decision to allocate inadequate motive power the right one? Think about what happened earlier in the year. Still the right decision? Or should a little bit more forward thinking have taken place?
     
  15. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    No doubt 61994 is very suitable for the route too, but 48151 is in house with WCRC, and being restricted to 50 means many itinaries it's not suitable for, but this one fits the bill.

    How come 61994 rarely features on the Jacobite anyway ?, is it just a case of "if it aint broke, don't fix it" with Riley and the NELPG, or other reasons come into play ?.
     
  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Aren't the prep facilities at FW a bit primitive, which makes a 3:cyl loco more problematic?
    As you say too there is an established roster which seems to work well. Wonder how 5212 will be fitted in when it's ready? OT, sorry.
     
  17. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,446
    Likes Received:
    9,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So those of you who are advocating a different loco, are you certain that your choice would not have suffered the same problem, given the conditions.
     
  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Don't forget Ralph, many of the posters will have spent a lifetime driving steam on the branch so no need to doubt their wisdom. :)
     
    andalfi1, ragl, Big Al and 1 other person like this.
  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Yes.
     
    andalfi1 likes this.
  20. royce6229

    royce6229 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    New Forest
    And those that actually have spent a lifetime driving steam on the branch said she would never get past mp19 with 6 on.
     

Share This Page