Waddon arrived in Canada 50 years ago today

Is it not possible that the wheels currently under Boxhill were manufactured at Ashford for Waddon? If SECR practice was left hand lead, I figured that would be the obvious answer...

When a loco was bought by another company, would the original company usually have given it any sort of manufacturer's warranty as it were, with use of spares and drawings? Or was it 'you bought it, you fix it'?! I think I'm right in saying the KESR Terriers were still overhauled at Brighton... What I'm getting at is; would Ashford have been able to obtain a spare set of wheels from Brighton or would they have made their own?

 

I think it varied from company: the SECR was clearly able to do their own repairs, to the extent of providing a boiler of new design for Waddon when the original was life expired. The LSWR also provided new Drummond-pattern boilers for their two Terriers. Whereas the KESR obviously needed to rely on Brighton for significant repairs. That said, I can't see why the SECR would change wheels - of all the things likely to wear out, wheels wouldn't be one of them.

The result was that the Terriers slowly became more and more heterogeneous. For example, the Isle of Wight Central Railway rebuilt No 11 (ex LBSCR No 40, the Paris Gold Medal engine, now preserved as W11 on the IoWSR) with a Marsh boiler (presumably sent from Brighton) but retained the Stroudley smokebox and above-running-plate sandboxes, creating a kind of A1 / A1x hybrid (and with their own design of chimney as well!) Old number 43 changed even more: she was sold to Weston, Clevedon & Portishead Railway and thereby came under teh umbrella of the GWR, who rebuilt her at Swindon with a steam brake, removing the air brake; removed the water pumps and condensing gear, added GWR lubricators and injectors, a new crank axle to replace a time-worn original, GW pattern lamp irons and whistle. She finally succumbed in 1954.

Probably a case of "modeller beware" if trying to model one. I remember when the Bluebell had five together for a gala a few years ago, and there weren't any two of them that were identical, or even remotely similar, when looked at closely!

Tom

 

I remember many years ago reading an article which accounted for Boxhill's wheels. They were exchanged with those of another loco, not a Terrier, with a DS prefix number which had thin tyres and didn't justify new ones. The issue of the left-leading crankpin was mentioned in the article and there was an accompanying photograph of both locos, line astern. Sorry, but I can not remember what the publication or what class the other loco was. I can't find another class of Southern Railway loco with 4'0" wheels either; does this jog anyone's memory?

David

 

hi dan and tom,

NEWPORT when rebuilt by the IWCR as an A1x with Marsh boiler had the A1x smokebox fitted at the time together with the cast saddle - the A1x smokebox actually being cleverly rivetted to the front tube plate angle as on all A1x locos, and actually extends a few inches back when compared to the A1 smokebox. the A1x smokeboxes had a brass crinolin ring to cover the gap between smokebox and barrel. (FENCHURCH therefore required some major surgery to the tubeplate to fit the current A1 smokebox).

the IWCR regularly obtained new cylinders and axles, as well as new boilers from Brighton. i think the IWCR A1x's look much better with the original gravity front sandboxes, and the extended bunker! FRESHWATER wasnt converted to A1x till SR days and still has her hinged LSWR front cab windows. STEPNEY has had no westinghouse pump since the early 1930s and has the brake shaft below the frames (possibly off an E1?). BOXHILL has a vertical handbrake column whereas all other preserved terriers have the handbrake column in the original Stroudley position at an angle.

the SECR obviously decided with WADDON not to buy a new boiler from Brighton in the same way the LSWR did for FRESHWATER! perhaps the LBSCR quoted too high a price when compared to the prices they charged the impecunious IWCR!

the locos when sold by the LBSCR didnt come with a guarantee, and the IWCR had to buy new parts quite soon after purchases - though with their atrocious track and bad maintenance and very heavy use of their terriers this wasnt entirely surprising!

i think it highly unlikely that the old SECR crank axle made for WADDON was re-used on BOXHILL. far more likely is that Ashford made a new one in 1949 but some error occured and it was made left side leading. it doesnt affect the working of the loco because the Stroudley balance weights are exactly opposite the crank pin, unlike most locos, though the crankaxle is opposite to normal because of Stroudley's pet ideas about locomotive balancing. i have a 1963 pic of eastleigh showing a terrier wheelset (not WADDON's) which isnt to the Stroudley design - it has completely curved ends to the webs whereas the Stroudley design (which FENCHURCH, STEPNEY, NEWPORT, FRESHWATER and WHITECHAPEL still have - the only locos i have pics of the crankaxle for) has sort of straight ends to the webs with a slight curve on the ends. Ashford ended up supplying/making lots of parts for the terriers in BR days including non standard larger injectors and clack valves and steam valves inferior to the Brighton originals!

incidentally the wheels are a most unusual design for the period being a cast iron hub and rim with wrought iron spokes. at the same time Crewe was casting steel wheels! another Stroudley pet idea. Brighton did however specify cast motion plates from Vickers, and superior very good quality Monkbridge iron frames, and very good quality steel axles. every detail of these locos is a fascinating example of Stroudley's meticulous attention to detail and aesthetic artistry. despite being incredibly light they were extremely powerful and tough. a friend of mine who is an acknowledged expert on valve gears checked the fullsize valve gear for Len Pullinger on the IWSR and found it quite superb and way ahead of most other designs of the period.

cheers,
julian

 

Weirder and weirder...

Checking Bradley again, Boxhill was restored to largely Stroudley condition in 1947. She then pottered around in steam at various celebrations (such as the Waterloo centenary) for a number of years, until being sent to Tweedmouth (!) for storage in May 1958. Continuing, Bradley says "During this lengthy period the livery and bright work had suffered considerable damage from the elements, thus before Boxhill could be placed on permanent display at Clapham Transport Museum, it had to be refurbished at Eastleigh Works".

The exact time that this second refurbishment took place isn't stated, except that it must have been after 1958, and presumably well after. So (bringing this back to Waddon!) it brings Boxhill and Waddon together at Eastleigh for refurbishment at least in reasonable proximity, though whether it was simultaneous is less certain.

It still seems odd to me though that, if the objective was to return Boxhill as close as possible to Stroudley condition, she should have her wheels swapped for a non-standard set.

Tom

 

hi tom,

i couldnt agree with you more re your last sentence!

the eastleigh refurbishment of BOXHILL was in 1960 - being mainly to remove rust! the re-painting was carried out at Clapham in 1961. there is a good pic of BOXHILL at clapham awaiting re-painting on the net.

so BOXHILL and WADDON were never side by side at eastleigh? i dont know where WADDON was stored between 1960 and 1963. that she wasnt broken up like a few other terriers at the time is somewhat miraculous.

i agree entirely about the non standard wheelsets on BOXHILL. my guess is that in 1949 Brighton asked Ashford to make a new crankaxle and they used the SECR drawings rather than the Brighton drawings. perhaps the 'we've pinched the wheelsets off BOXHILL to put under WADDON' caused some confusion, and they thought they were making another SECR set for WADDON!

what i maintain is that WADDON's old SECR crankaxle wasnt re-used on BOXHILL and a new crankaxle was made at Ashford in 1949 as a replacement. although Brighton was still building locos at the time, it was restricted to certain parts and perhaps the ability to make new crankaxles was no longer available at Brighton. for example they made new Bulleid pacifics - but not all the parts! other parts came from eastleigh and ashford. when the Bulleid pacifics were rebuilt at Brighton to the Ron Jarvis design they needed new crankaxles but i dont know whether Brighton produced these parts (in 1954 the breakage of a crankaxle on a Bulleid pacific prompted the rebuilds).

what is certain from pics of the period and BOXHILL at York and Clapham is that the tyres on BOXHILL show hardly any wear and are of the 4' 1" diameter and the wheels are of the correct Stroudley wrought iron spoked shape with cast hubs and rims.

incidentally i have no info whatsoever as to why BOXHILL was transferred to Tweedmouth!

colin boocock described in steam world the replacement of WADDON at Lancing. he/she was pretty knackered by then! i have no idea where WADDON was stored between 1960 and 1963 - i guess he/she was hidden away at Brighton, as in this period various other terriers were scrapped at eastleigh such as 32677 ex W13 CARISBROOKE (whose extended bunker was fitted to MARTELLO in 1960).

cheers,
julian

 

hi david,

the terrier axles are quite unusual. the normal design is for the axle to be reduced in diameter where it fits onto the wheels. this isnt the case with the terriers. also the eccentic casting (comprising 2 eccentrics) fits snuggly round the inner crank axle web instead of being keyed to the axle. so there is no way that an existing crankaxle could have been adapted for a terrier. the SECR must have made a 'one off' special for WADDON rather than buy a replacement for WADDON from the LBSCR. the LSWR did the same for NEWINGTON (46) subsequently FRESHWATER (W2/8), and both companies decided to build new boilers for a one off design for them, rather than buy replacement boilers from the LBSCR. probably the small size didnt require flanging plates for the throatplate and other flanged plates.

i still think Fred Rich got the details of what happened in 1949 quite wrong!

however that is pure speculation on my part, though based on a reasonably thorough knowledge of the terrier design and it's idiosyncrasies!

cheers,
julian

 

Hi David , that sounds like the Fred Rich article I mentioned at the bottom of page 2 in this thread, the one that seems to have opened the lid on the worm tin!
Cheers,
Owd Sweedy

 

Hi Julian, perhaps the facts are to be found here, the reference Fred Rich mentioned in his 2005 letter....
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C1964470

The date to look for being 10th March 1949. Brighton works erecting shop.

If I lived in England I would have to keep an apartment next door to Kew as there is so much research I would love to do there.
This has been a fascinating exchange and the next time I am with Waddon I will try to remembers my camera and take some detail photos
of things like water pumps, inside cylinders, smokebox interior and axle ends etc. and post them here if there is any interest.
Cheers,
Owd Sweedy

 

do i have a set of genuine numberplates for STEPNEY?

answers on a postcard, please!

cheers,
julian

 

Not seeing the picture?

Tom

 

Cheers Owd Sweedy, I'd love to see any pictures you can provide. As i'm at the bottom of the world, its rather a long way for me to have a look at a real Terrier.
Thanks,
Daniel

 

Picking up on various posts on this thread, firstly, the penny has dropped as to my thinking that Boxhill's wheel swap was with another class of engine; wrong (fairly obviously) but I read the article in the '60s and at that time wasn't aware of the gregarious nature of Terriers. I knew that it wasn't an LBSC engine, so made the assumption which remained in my memory.

Secondly, Bullied apparently asked Brighton works for the loan of the Terrier wheel pattern for use on the Irish (turf burning) Leader, but the response was, for the reason Julian points out, negative. (That was from a Bullied biography). Tom (James Squared) hints at something I wondered; are any two of the survivors identical?

Owd Sweedy, was I reading the Fred Rich article you refer to, and if so, where did I find it? This has indeed been a fascinating thread, thanks everyone.

David

 

While looking for something completely different, I came across a wonderful photo collection online, illustrative of lots of what we have been discussing, or at least with some interesting clues:

"Waddon" (ex 54), mid 1957, running as DS680
http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Train...gines/23527315_cvMLpG#!i=2347140073&k=FrnRDrg


"Morden" (ex 35), running as 377S "Brighton Works"
http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Train...gines/23527315_cvMLpG#!i=2175773854&k=q67bPHv and next few photos

"Boxhill" (82) running as a 2-4-0T
http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Train...gines/23527315_cvMLpG#!i=2071206762&k=ZKHHJKq

"Earlswood" (83) - a good photo of a largely original condition A tank, before the Marsh rebuuilding
http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Train...gines/23527315_cvMLpG#!i=2356050688&k=F6g4Bzz

"Stepney" (ex 55) running as 655 on the LBSCR duplicate list early in Southern Railway days, still in LBSCR livery and still with condensing gear, but a Marsh boiler and smokebox
http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Train...gines/23527315_cvMLpG#!i=1902550228&k=j9LQ5jT

Collection starts here, with some BR-era photos of "Fenchurch", "Whitechapel" and also, fleetingly, the Adams Radial 30583 (ex-488).
http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Train...gines/23527315_cvMLpG#!i=2130907017&k=NZm9rW9

Tom

 

Owd Sweedy, was I reading the Fred Rich article you refer to, and if so, where did I find it? This has indeed been a fascinating thread, thanks everyone.

David[/quote]

Hi David,
here is my reference to Fred Rich's article. He was an apprentice at Brighton Works in 1949 and in his article is a photo he took that March in the errecting
shop, of Waddon and Boxhill together, both minus their coupling rods.

"Frederick Rich. Railway World magazine Feb 1983, article entitled "Boxhill, Morden and Waddon, a tale of three Rooters".

He followed up with a letter to the editor in Steam World Magazine December 2005, where he retells the story and reprints the photo.

Cheers,
Owd Sweedy.

 

I have revived this thread as we moved Waddon into the workshop, and over the pit, last weekend to refresh some small areas of paint and to polish up the bright work etc
It is 10 years since I and two friends carried out a cosmetic restoration which allowed Waddon to go back on display after years in secure storage.
I have taken some photos for Julian, Tom, Daniel, and anyone else interested. I think I am the first person to to work underneath the loco in 53 years! It is in fairly good shape considering.
The first photo is the inside of the smokebox..




Water pump




More to follow.
Owd Sweedy.

 

Thanks Owd Sweedy, fascinating pictures. Interesting to see the two condensing pipes and the blastpipe, would love to see how that all works in the bottom of the smokebox. Curious about those spilt pins in the ends of the studs for the water pump gland, seem rather pointless really with locking nuts. That water pump is lovely, one must assume that there were some originals still around when the locos was restored, surely they wouldn't have gone to that much trouble to make such a lovely item from scratch for an engine that was going on static display?
Daniel

 

Here are some more photos I took while she was over the pit.
On the motion bracket casting it says Vickers Steel on one side and LB&SCR No. 798 on the back.





Some of the lads there who were working on other projects came over for a look at this exotic little loco, especially
underneath, and were intrigued by the crosshead driven water pumps, and amazed at how it had all been shoehorned
in between the frames.



The remains of the air brake system are still I'm place, though not connected to the pump and on the
end if the auxiliary reservoir someone had chalked DS680. After 53 years or more it is still there as if it was chalked on yesterday!

Cheers,
Owd Sweedy.

 

I have some photos of Waddon at Delson circa 1988 somewhere on my first assignment overseas.

As I recall she was in located just out of public view in the main shed as it was then, I could just glimpse a tiny bit of the bunker from the viewing area; I couldn't help myself and walked over into the storage area and spent a few minutes with her... she had a few SR headcode disks in the bunker and she looked shabby but presentable, I really should go and find/scan those negatives!

Anyways thanks for posting those current shots

 

Old Chap, thats where I first saw her in 1986 and though I felt a little dismayed at the time, I realized it could have been a lot worse, she could have been outside with all the other Canadian locos and rolling stock that were literaly rusting away for want of shelter in those days.