The MHR today?

When I was forced to move everything from the MHR 29 years ago, I had been the the Midland Railway Centre, Swindon & Cricklade, Didcot, MLST, and several other lines before we settled in the Bristol Surburban Railway. The reason we chose the railway, was they were small, but had great potential for running trains the full way to near Bath Green Park, but at the time the line was under threat from the Bath to Bristol Rapid Transit line, which was going to use large sections of the old Midland line. Still there was a plan to relay track, and expand the railway, build a loco shed, and much more. Once Jim and I, had built our little shed for the Jinty, Mike arrived and took over as usual, so we settled in. I bought a sleeping car from the Dart Valley, I was a bit annoyed that the railway's commercial activities were so small. and yet they had a constant stream of people visiting Bitton, via the Avon Valley footpath. So I took time off from the engines and took over running the shop. A bit of redecoration, and new stock, and there was a bigger turnover and more profit for the railway. I also arranged to get enough station lamps to refit both the platforms, and a number of old advertisement signs, to add to the look of the station. Like I had done for the 4f, I sounded out people at Bitton, to see if the last best 8f could be bought, and with a loan from the bank, we could do it. So, the 8f was bought and moved to Bitton. By 1988 there was Black 5, 8f, 3f, 80000T. and then Mike's Bullied arrived. We had been working on the Jinty as the main engine, but Mike kept on changing the order things were being made, so ond day we'd do a bit for the 4f, then something for his Bullied. and maybe a bit for the 3f. It kept on like that until I lost my job in 1989. I spent my last few weeks detubing the 4f. Prior to that. I had helped get a free building, which could have been a frame of a loco shed. Lots of Mk1 coach spares and signalling equipment, but there were things which made me very angry there too. The PW did not stick to the relaying plan, to the point where we had no space to put things so I found a small group of helpers and laid a siding in an afternoon, in the car park, and shunted stock onto it. The trouble that caused was ridiculous, all because the PW group had been showed up, as being to slow. If we had had the track and ballast, I'm sure we could have been in Paddington by now! But after five years of treading water, I could see nothing was ever going to happen, or change. The small railway, and let's not get bigger, scared them, and so life went on at Bitton slowly. I meanwhile went up to Bury and got involved with Prittywod Garden Centre, and I was employed to go to Poland and buy stock for the Garden center to sell and wholesale. Business was good, but as I traveled around Poland I found lost of steam still working, and it was by chance I was home and I went up to see Brian Ashby, at the Northampton line, and they were unloading a TKh, which had just arrived from Poland. It was a very rough engine, and I knew I had seen better ones on my travels, So when Prettywood Garden Center went bust suddenly, I had no job again, but by then I already had to buy a Lyd 2, for the Welsh Highland Rly, and ship it, then another order and another, and I was so busy, I was only in the UK for a Christmas and summer trip to see my mum. By that time I was renting a flat, and had learn't Polish, so I could negotiate for engines myself, which made life much easier. All the time this was going on someone stole all of the carriage prints which ma and Neal had recovered from Scotland and sold them through the Bitton Railwayana auction. I'm sure LMS and LNER carriage prints fetch a fortune today. There were suspicious break in's ad things stolen, which were hidden away, and not easy to find. Everyone blamed local kids every time it happened, but the kids never cam into our shed so how did they know were every thing was? All this history, and once again all for nothing.

Black 5, 8f, 3f, 80000, and BB all gone.
Line still not in Bath, and running a railway on hired in locos.
Even it's name is thanks to me!
And now I'm told 2025 completion of 44123, by which time all, or most of the owners will be DEAD!

 

Really struggling to see how this is 'The MHR today...'?

 

i think what Graham is saying is that the Avon Valley cant overhaul an engine he obviously has a lot of interest in, with in a reasonable time span, its telling that several of the engines now have migrated to the MHR, the BB, the black 5 i believe came from bitton, no owner, or former ownr want to know that an engine they started restoring 25 years ago wont be done in their life time, that would be what 40 years, from purchase from Woodams

 

I think I am right in saying that some if not all these engines like the 4f weren't owned by the railway and therefore the railway did not dictate the speed of restoration. It was the owning groups that took so long to restore them.

 

It's not, the thread needs retitling.

 

yes i believe none were owned by the AVR i dare say the AVR it's self wishes it had an engine that it didnt have to pay hire charges for to operate its services.

 

I know a few of the guys working on 4123. They are working in a methodical manner, to very high standards and are making good progress on tender and loco. I feel some of the comments made by various members are doing them a great disservice.

If anyone wants to see this 4f run why not offer to help them?

 

Exactly.

After 29 years of doing next to nothing, is another 10 years going to see the job done? Look at the proof put up in pictures, and most of it is little bits, nothing major is complete. When you have limited resources why waste time and money on a fully working water scoop? Nothing to me makes any sense, to me. Why did we waste time and money buying a tender, that was scrap? Simple, in 1981 when we bought the engine, the tender needed repairs, but was a long way from scrap. Only after another 15 years of neglect, it probably became a big job to repair, and move on 20 years it needed to be fully rebuilt. None of this can be blamed on me, it's down to the owners neglect, and Bitton. The owners are now all 60 + , with an expected finish date of 2025, which I suspect is very optimistic, there will be nobody left so see it steam.

44123 built 1925, withdrawn 1965, left Barry 1981, to date still not steamed, after 34 years in preservation.

 

As one of the owners has posted in this thread, may I suggest you contact him by PM to get an update on their plans.

 

Perfection cost time and money, and no engine in preservation is restored to "very high standards", they are repaired and used again. I had the argument with several "experts" trying to restore a steam loco to the tolerances of an aircraft will not work. they need to be a bit loose to round a corner! Break rigging is another example, but of course boiler fittings and alike have to be spot on. A tender top can be welded up in a few weeks, but I guess they will try to flush rivet it.

 

I was insulted today by one of their group, so there is nothing to talk about.

 

As Simon sayes, its down to the owners, its after all their engine, if they are not happy with the level of progress, then they have the sanction to place it where they think it may be done sooner, for instance, if the AVR cant restore it over a 39 year period, then you have to look else where. if it were to move, it would have to take its turn in the queue, but saying that, if the engine were to be done at Ropley some time over the next 5 years, and the AVR did the tender, then some deal could be done, for instance 41312 could see some time at Bitton when its not needed , like peak season when its going to be to small to take a 5 coach set on theMHR,?

 

Mr Graham you make a number of sweeping statements firstly some of the owners are well short of 60 years old the especially those who are workkng on the project the tender work which has had to be done ( new frames) were not due to it lying around yes the body has deteriorated but it was pretty shot 30 years ago and it was always planned to make a complete new top 30 years ago. You also know why it had not been worked on and you eluded to that reason in an earlier posting on this thread.
Knowing the structure of those Working on the project now, providing they can find the money , it will come together as a finished loco and tender possibly within 10 Years I doubt sooner as we all have time constraints mainly called working for a living.
history is what people made it for reasons that were what they were you were part of those people who made that history.
Great to carp about it but it's not going to change it.
The group working on it are making a different history with progress as part of that it's their money going into the restoration.

 

Well said my friend.I work on the railway and so glad and proud its my railway with no doubt others that work on it.
Not being a flat railway and full of BULLEIDS
We have excellent facilities for resteration projects and workshops.
Its a much better railway from old.
Up the BULLEIDS

 

Ah we don't want to talk about money? That might get very dirty.

And THE OWNERS were the people who saved the engine. I know some of you younger lads have poped in to take over and own the engine.

I've heard people are billing their time for shares? That's an easy way to take over the 4f, but then I'd be an owner then?

That's why I've got all of the papers from Jim, and it will take me a while, but I'll find out for myself thanks.

I wonder how many people know that the AVR wanted to charge £8000 a year parking? Not surprising all the other engines left is it?

 

I really don't see where this thread can go...it's not about the Mid Hants and it's just going to degenerate into a slanging match.

It's pointless. I don't doubt that the originator of this thread feels aggrieved by events, but surely it"s a private matter?

Also, in another place he's been having a pop about the current state of affairs on the MHR without getting many facts right so again I guess he's just going to have to get rid of the big chip he seems to have on his shoulder about things that happened a long time ago.

 

All,

I don't post here often, but when I do it tends to be on the long side - so apologies for that in advance!

I appreciate that this thread is supposed to be about the MHR, and thus I must apologise for what follows, as it relates almost entirely to 4123 which suddenly was brought into the conversation for some reason.

I should also point out that I have no connection with the MHR apart from being a very occasional visitor to their impressive set-up at Ropley, and thus no points to make on the original thread topic other than this: As has been alluded to by others, neither the presently active members of the London Midland Society or anybody representing the MHR have made any approach to each other about taking 4123 to Ropley, and certainly the LMS are not expecting the need for any such conversation to arise in the near future. (It would appear, as others have noted, that the MHR already has a healthy queue of locos in its workshop queue, including, by the way, 34058 which has been donated to them, and on which many of our members have put in many hours in over the years it was at the AVR).

'The Engineer' has summarised the 4123 situation well I think in his earlier post (on page 2), but I feel that I must correct some of the speculative and factually incorrect things posted by various people, including the OP.

1. 4123 does not need 'rescuing' or 'saving' from the AVR (or anybody else). The AVR is happy for us to be there, and whilst not directly physically involved in the restoration, they are generally supportive, we have a positive relationship with the operational side of the railway, and like those actively working on the loco, most people associated with the AVR operations and management want to see it run there.

2. The condition of the loco is definitely not 'unknown'. Those who need to know (i.e. those working on it and leading the restoration - of which I am one) have a very thorough understanding of its present condition and the work required to restore it. Indeed, after many years of random stripping of components, partial finishing of the restoration of parts, chaotic scattering of same over various locations around the country, and with an almost complete lack of coordination, planning and control, we at last, and after much effort, have a comprehensive parts list, know where everything is, have gathered it all back together, and therefore know what we still need to make/acquire/find, and what is still to be done. Based on this, there is an oultine restoration plan and we are progressing the project on many fronts, including undertaking a significant amount of work by commercial companies in order to make progress - something that was rarely done previously. From this point of view, the loco is arguably in the best state its been in since it left Barry!

3. The cab built at Ropley, whilst very nicely made, was never actually fully completed. There are a still a few pieces missing, and none of it was riveted together - just temporarily bolted and put in position over a very tired set of frames and rear drag box - all of which will need to be dismantled. Given the state of corrosion that was setting in, and the fact that it would have needed dismantling anyway prior to riveting, and also that it was in the way of ongoing cleaning & painting work on the boiler and frames and eventual boiler lift, was one of the reasons that we decided to dismantle it, carry out remedial works, and store it away for safe keeping until the time comes to rivet it together and erect it. It does not need to be rebuild other than in the sense of re-erecting it.

4. Even before his recent sad medical problem, Mike Vout had not done any meaningful work on the loco for at least the last five years. The same applies for Jim as he was forced to stop coming to the AVR for various reasons. This is in no way intended to be a critiscism of either gentlemen - we are very very grateful for what they have done over the years - just a fact of life. Its inevitable that as people get older, or other things take priority for them, then they cannot devote the time they once had. However, this does not mean that no work has been done - far from it - we have had regular weekend working parties for many years now with a growing volunteer base, and in the last two years or so have been fortunate to have a 'mid week gang' working on the loco on Mondays & Fridays.

5.The 'Jinty Van' referred to is owned by an London Mid. Soc. Member (One of the two gentlemen mentioned above AFAIK) and has indeed by re-roofed, re-floored, cleared out of rubbish that was of no use whatever for restoring a loco, and had a new door made, without, as far as I'm aware, any involvement of the OP who implies that the vehicle belongs to him. It is presently used as a tool and small workshop van - primarily by the mid-week group referred to above.

6. Standards and 'Tolerances', etc. The loco and tender is not being built to 'aircraft' tolerances. We work to the LMS 'Limits & Fits' book, which covers almost everything on a loco and we like to try and do things properly (Partly so we won't have to fix them or do them again, and partly so there is no question about the quality). Yes, not all locos necessarily follow this course, and we have all probably seen some rough old girls in our time, but that's not what we want to be aiming for I think. The tender tank will be welded construction where it is sensible to make it so, and riveted in areas where that is the best way of doing it. No doubt something could be welded up in a couple of weeks, but that doesn't necessarily mean its what we want or should do.

7. We are of course grateful to the OP and other founder memebrs for the work he did in saving the loco from Barry in the first place, and getting it moved, and doing work on it at the then fledgling MHR. We know this wasn't easy with limited time, money and resources. However, by his own admission, the last time he worked on it was in 1989, which according to me is around twenty six years ago. This does call into question why only now is there a sudden interest in the welfare of an engine that he has not set eyes on in decades, let alone worked on... this, and an apparently odd desire to know what's going on in the inner workings of the MHR strikes me as somewhat odd. However, as I have always been taught to 'play the ball not the man', perhaps I'd better leave it there.

I trust this clarifies the position a little further. I write the above as somebody who spends every other weekend working typically a 12 hrs/day on the loco in Bristol (I live in London btw), and when I'm not doing that then I'm co-ordinating with other groups to source parts, finding, interpreting and sorting out drawings, doing new drawings for companies to quote against, organising the manufacture & delivery and further work on new components, making patterns and machining castings at home in the evenings, and running the website, twitter and flickr pages (well worth a follow if you're interested!)

Oh yeah - I almost forgot - In the last few years I have made and continue to make significant financial contributions to the project, as have others who are directly involved. I have personally spent 10s of thousands of pounds on the loco & new tender chassis - and am about to put my hand quite deeply and further into my pocket to sponsor the construction of the new tender tank. which has just been commenced. I have done this willingly, not with the dsire to 'muscle in' on the ownership, but with the sole view of getting in running again as quickly as we can, and restoring it as faithfully as possible to its as built condition. To be forced also to defend all of the above from ill-informed and unrealistic aspirations and to satisfy somebody's desire to re-live their past preservation history is a little frustrating when I'd rather be spending my time on the engine.

James

 

Normally true, but sometimes putting the washing out brings benefits, even if the engine stays where it is, people will be able to see for themselves what if anything is going on, and will remember my posts.

The reason I started this thread under the MHR title was because I would like to right a wrong, and you all know that is a matter I still grieve about.

 

Well, Ill shut up for now and watch for now. As soon as I have the money and fixed my car, I will pay a visit to be proved wrong. I was annoyed by my phone call from Karl who spoke to me like I'm a bit of dirt on his shoe!

At the same time I will remove my Birkenhead Sign, which will be the last thing I own from the Jinty days.

 

Unfortunately I don't think people will remember your posts as you seem determined to only recount and seek recognition of your perceived version of events.

I would imagine that people are more likely to remember and note the balanced and full account of the way things are as outlined in post no. 57.