44767 at Butterley for the Winter

Power being a product of speed and T.E., higher power outputs are always going to be at the higher speeds and, as T.E. drops off with speed, if the T.E. of 44767 is slightly lower than a standard Black 5 at higher speeds, as it is likely to be with a link valve gear due to its characteristics, then Rugby's conclusion is probably correct. However, simple power doesn't tell the whole story with a Black 5, which is unlikely to spend much of its time running at high speed but more of it producing raw pull at the drawbar at lower speeds. The fact that it survived as a one-off to the very end of steam speaks volumes for it. It's other unique point now is that it is the only long wheelbase Black 5 to survive.

 

Good morning John,

Apparently, 44686 and 44687 were viewed as very powerful engines for a Black 5 and were regarded as equivalent to class 6. When new, they were allocated to Longsight depot and were regularly used on express trains such as The Pines Express from Manchester to Birmingham. It is indeed a pity that one didn't survive long enough to be preserved; as you say, it would be interesting to see how one would have performed when compared to today's fleet of preserved Black 5s on the main line.

Cheers

Alan

 

I see that there is a webpage about the building of a replica Black 5 with Caprotti valve gear

http://www.britishcaprottiblack5.org.uk/

 

h,mmm.

 

Alan,

Thank you for this interesting information. These two locos were withdrawn at least a couple of years before the end of steam, which is a bit surprising given they were a bit more powerful than a normal black 5. Perhaps being non-standard didn't work in their favour. Interesting that there is a group hoping to build a replica. I wish them well, but I think it will be challenge to garner much support for building a 19th black five - albeit very different from the other 18 - when the organisation will have to compete for funds with the growing number of groups seeking to build representatives of classes which are extinct. Still, you can never say never.

 

So Ian Riley can drive 45407 on the mainline, without needing a conductor?

 

i believe so

 

I was fortunate enough to be on the charter that Mel Chamberlain arranged around 1995 from Stockport to St Pancras hauled by 44767. Being steam hauled into a London terminus from the north was pretty rare back then so too good an opportunity to miss, the stock incidentally was the oddly livered Pilkington Mk1s. Well she absolutely flattened the bank southwards after the Macclesfield stop and I've been a 44767 fan ever since, great loco and George Ivatt's little joke. Photo after arrival at St P.

Dave

 

Would he still need to sign the route though? Know we're going slightly off topic but this has opened up a slightly bigger can of worms than my 'standard' black 5 comment!

 

If 45407 was leading Mr Riley could surely drive 44871 instead without a conductor?
The latest steam railway mentioned that the owner thinks 45407 has better grip and traction, i think the phrase used, than 44871.

 

As much as this is something I would LOVE to see, that website does not fill me with confidence. Poor grammar and presentation doesn't necessarily mean anything (other than a pet peeve of mine), but it just seems to be one person at the moment, and it's not even clear what role he has, and the mission statement makes no mention of anything like fundraising, charitable status, etc., though it is early days yet. Also, the vacant position of "Admin Person" doesn't sound very professional.

But at least this person has basic web programming skills rather than a facebook account

 

And of all of the theories go straight out of the window on power, HP etc when you take into account the way that the engine is maintained.

I remember when 44767 was back in traffic following its major overhaul, not the one just done the one 2 years before that and the front cylinder cover was leaking and the piston packing was honking out which will affect the power output of the loco. Also the way that the valves/ pistons and their bores have been maintained will have a massive effect on the power of the loco.

The way that the boilers are maintained and washed out will affect the steaming rate of the loco and hence affect the power that loco can produce.

So in some ways you can have the best engineered loco on paper but the way that it is maintained will affect it, so may maybe 45407 and 44871 are more useful than 44767?

 

I once spoke to an Ex-BR driver who's name i've sadly forgotton and he always reckoned 44767 was superior to a regular Black 5, she took hills better and was free'er running.

 

I think that you will find it is WCR policy to provide a route conductor for any driver who does not 'sign the route', regardless of whether it is the leading or trailing loco....period.

 

If that is the case then its happy days for owner drivers on the mainline just like in Europe...

 

I remember talking to a well known footplate crew in Poland back in 2007, on 5521.

They were told to drive on PKP they need to prove they were competent.
What did that entail...

Taking 5521 on a charter from Wolsztyn to Leszno without any PKP crew on the footplate (train had a PKP guard and a translator), keeping it to time. (if they failed, they weren't competent).
They didn't fail, so no one told them off, so they were ok.

 

Ah, yes, but it is a different world with regard to H & S and no ORR, I bet.

 

The route to driving with a british mainline TOC is indeed very thorough!, commencing with many weeks, indeed months of classroom rules and regulations including, or followed by, traction training and competence to be completed and competent.

There then follows a two year period as a 'relief' driver before full driver competence is achieved.

To compare it with europe and Poland in particular is not even a near comparison.

 

Any updates on 44767?