If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Tornado to haul certain timetabled trains on S&C: Feb 14-16

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by GWR4707, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    Thanks, now seen the PM.

    For clarification, 67 ETS only, slowing for platform clearance at Horton in R and same crew both days. There was no dispensation to run up to 70; I think that the steward provided the info in good faith, but presumably had been misinformed.

    Sorry for any confusion caused.

    Thanks for your help, very much appreciated.
     
    rule55 likes this.
  2. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Oh yes you did but I don't expect you to admit to it.
     
  3. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,046
    Likes Received:
    15,736
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If they are going to run them out of Leeds, possibly WCRC can take on the Leeds-Morecambe trains and get rid of the Pacers, nodding donkeys are bad enough, but combine them with jointed rail and its heading towards whiplash territory!
     
  4. Alberta 45562

    Alberta 45562 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    585
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Train Simulator Developer
    Location:
    Cudworth,Barnsley
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Just uploaded my photo of 60163 powering north from Skipton yesterday,really hope something more can come of these services,I'm certain there would be a large market from Skipton (and elsewhere) during the summer months to make them very worthwhile.

    60163 'Tornado' storms away from Skipton with 2Z53 10:44 Skipton-Appleby on 16th February 2017.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark-walker/32954855155/in/photostream/

    Thanks to everyone involved,my dad traveled on two of the days and enjoyed both.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  5. Dobbs0054

    Dobbs0054 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2014
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    520
    Gender:
    Male
    But they ran the extra service trains.... Guess NR and their partners know a tad more than you...
     
  6. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Not to time though. And nowhere did I say it couldn't be done, I merely explained the significance of what 30567 posted and the difficulties with what is actually there.

    Be interesting to hear what experience you have of the infrastructure on the S&C to make such a personal jibe, seeing as how I've physically maintained the signal and associated infrastructure I speak of. Excluding yesterday, the last time I travelled over Ribblehead was by foot in a T3...
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
    John Rowley, 7143, RayMason and 9 others like this.
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Game, set and match to lil Bear. :)
     
  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,239
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    +1
     
  9. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,446
    Likes Received:
    9,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    +2 You certainly can't argue with someone with front line experience.
     
  10. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,165
    It was in the Exif data of the picture that had already been posted, but #636 does make it more prominent.
     
  11. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,836
    Likes Received:
    2,677
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Relaxingly retired
    Location:
    Deep in the country
    Confessions of a Northern Plandampfer...

    The organisation and management from a Plandampfer's point of view

    Much has been written about what went on. Some of the comments I didn't recognise at all and some were overblown. This is my take having been there and had no reserved seats on the 1044 train on the 15th and 16th which was dire for a 'timer'.

    Day one: Caught the 0615 service train to Appleby arriving at 0730. The redoubtable FOSCL ladies had a refreshments stand in place for a welcoming hot coffee. The queue for the 192 non-reserved seats was already formed and growing. Talking to Northern Staff on the train just after 0900 we found out that the queue for the 1044 was already forming! It was pretty obvious that no-one with non-reserved tickets was going to get on the 1044. I showed the email receipts for bookings on the 1044 and 1457 for the 15th and 16th to one of the project staff as I'd been told by a member of Customer Services on the phone that advance bookings made for stated trains that email confirmation would be honoured. He told me that it appeared that only the Seat Reservation Coupons would be accepted. So we were going to have problems to get on the 1044 on both days. Not good as we'd booked 4 nights in the Herriots Hotel in Skipton at £88 a night!!

    Skipton at 1015 wasn't that chaotic as the queue was outside the station not to get in the way of passengers for service trains running from all platforms in the layover! The turnaround was well managed by the signallers. The engine had to come off the train, set back; cross over to the road for P3; run through and cross over onto P2 road; attach to the train that was towed out by the 67 to the crossovers east of the station. It made a splendid site as Tornado brought the train into P2. Not until it was in the platform did the Northern Staff allow non-reserved seat passengers onto the platform. Incidentally they relabelled the coaches so we were on the front for the first northern run.

    We heard on the train that anything up to 200 prospective passengers had been unable to join the train. It was rumoured the train was dispatched before all the passengers within the 192 had been allowed across to P3 and there were indeed empty seats. For them to have a chance at a run in daylight, a 2 car 158 relief was added to get them to Appleby to queue for the 1457. This train ran on all three days. As we had reserved tickets for the only time we strolled over to the Royal Oak and had an excellent meal and a few beers. We got back about 1420 and the queue that had formed from the bridge northwards, was already more than half way to the platform end, 3/4 deep with many more people joining. No-one was allowed to cross until all reserved seat passengers had joined the train. Fortunately there were seats for everyone though the Northern Staff were fairly clueless at counting people into the queues.

    There was a sizeable queue at Skipton for the 1715 train and again there was chaos on P3 as some stewards were sending us to the front of the train for coach A expecting the train to be relabelled as the 1044 had been, while others were sending us to the back!!! In the end they didn't change the coach labelling and A remained on the front from Appleby for the rest of the Plandampf. On the first night we bailed at Kirkby Stephen as we were late and there was no indication that the 1656 would be held at Appleby - a decision for York Control. As it happened it was but it was nice to wander around the station in what had become a mild evening.

    Day two: Caught the 0615 to Appleby with many more fellow travellers. We had the quandary about how the hell to get on the 1044 from Skipton to consider. RTT is a useful site for many reasons and came up with the obvious solution. The 1044 departs from P3, an island platform with P4. RTT was showing a 1030 Bradford Foster Square service so we put another £10 into Northern's coffers by buying 2 singles from a very surprised looking guy at the ticket hatch in Appleby!! Did it work? Yup. We seemed to catch the ticket checkers by surprise and got to the island platform. My colleague was going to stand in a vestibule so at worst we were only taking up one seat. People in the queue were not allowed onto the platform until the reserved ticket holders were boarding. Again some 150+ who queued were unable to join the train. I got what I needed, a milepost side window in the front coach.

    After a quick lunch and a couple of beers at the Midland we wandered under the railway bridge, up the footpath and into the Waiting Room on P2. Seemed like a good plan as my colleague isn't fit to stand in a queue for over an hour. Just after 1400 the only really unfriendly Northern 'Steward' we encountered on all three days came over to P2, locked the gate and threw everyone other than a lady waiting for the 1447 out! There's always one. My colleague stayed as I joined the queue for the both of us. It was fairly chaotic on P1 as again no-one seemed to have the nous to use the number counters as people joined the queue. People started getting worried about the numbers. They told me I was number 100+ but my experience of events when I worked told me that was way over estimated. People actually got off the 1444 Armathwaite Service expecting to get on! Some had bought tickets, some hadn't so they told those that hadn't to join the queue and they took their money on the train. Again the queue was way up the platform but nowhere near 192.

    Out of interest I asked the lady for the number count when they checked us onto the bridge. I'd told the group around me not to worry as we were around 70 at most. I was the 68th. The method used to let us board through only one door and proceed to the back of the coach and fill it from the back seemed perverse to many but it was the only sensible way make sure as many passengers as possible could join. It fell apart a bit as there were groups of two, three, four and more so every seat from the back didn't get filled 'in order'. It worked though and then the stewards sent people back to fill the few spaces remaining. As far as I know no-one was left behind and people joined at Kirkby, Garsdale, Horton and Settle.

    The queue for the 1715 was much smaller and this was probably the lowest loading of all. This time I'd found out the 1856 would be held so had a relaxing journey to Appleby.

    Day three: again a fair number of fellow travellers on the 0615. It should have been a repeat of day two but we almost got caught out on the Bradford tickets as one less friendly Skipton guy radioed to find out where the Bradford train was running from - it actually said P1. Thankfully a very nice man I'd been talking to on the way down about the booking issues, who turned out to have been one of the project team, nodded us through. I was told on the platform by a couple who had reservations and came over late from the hotel that they were still letting people join the queue at 1015 when it was already longer than day 2!! As the unreserved seats were on the front again I got a milepost window seat in the front coach and enjoyed hearing the so-called quiet engine charge the long drag.

    At Appleby people were asking where to queue not long after the train arrived but it was raining quite heavily so no-one did. I made do with a couple of superb giant sausage rolls from a local butcher and a couple of cups of coffee from the FOSCL 'buffet' - under a couple of small marquees in the dry. Then myself and a few others formed the queue in light rain not long after 1300. The mood of the front part of the queue was lighthearted and friendly and we put the railways and the world to rights well before 1430.

    The queue was long, possibly the longest of the three days. Despite being assured that management arrangements would be better as they had 'learned as they went along', again no count was made as people joined. It would have been so easy and given reassurance to folk that up to the magic number 192 would be able to travel on the train. Despite grumbling and moaning about the length of the queue only one man got really stroppy with the stewards. He tried to pull the old predictable bluff 'my friend has my reserved ticket and he's on P2'. He kept on at them until his bluff was called and he was asked to ring his friend on his mobile and ask him to meet a steward on the bridge with proof of reservation. No prizes for guessing the outcome. He reluctantly trooped to the back of the queue though he was told it was unlikely he'd get on.

    The number estimation was way out again and he and everyone in the queue got on. There were also spaces for passengers to join at the intermediate stations with no problem. I'm pretty sure they kept the seats in the brake for this purpose as they only had boards for reserved coaches A-D and unreserved F,G and H. There was a decent but not excessive queue waiting for the final train at Skipton. We arrived late but the runarounds were done very rapidly, even holding the 1655 Leeds service outside the station for us to get away close to time. No-one was left behind and the 1856 service train from Appleby was held for those who needed to return to Skipton and beyond.

    On train, the Northern Stewards who'd come from all parts of the network and ranged from trainees to office staff to train dispatchers were friendly and apart from on the last day on the 1044 in the front coaches, allowed passengers to stand in the vestibules with the windows cracked open and even drop them a little to take photographs. Sales of the S&C guide being sold by FOSCL folk were poor despite them only costing £3.50. I bought one despite already having many copies.

    Considering the unexpectedly high numbers who turned up to 'pay on the day', particularly after the television reports on Tuesday Night, the Northern Personnel on Skipton didn't lose their cool and patiently dealt with people as sympathetically as they could, particularly locals who thought they would be guaranteed 'walk on' seats right up to the last minute.

    The one thing that surprised me was the crowd management at Skipton after Day One. Yes, they were caught out by the numbers but after that experience it should have been possible for Station Management to send a member of staff out with an 'End of Queue' marker to stop people joining the queue when they had no chance whatsoever of getting on the train. Misjudging the numbers by a reported 150 or so on days 2 and 3 was a tad inexcusable.

    Other than that, the only real issue was booking specific trains in advance yet not being allowed to travel on them, and believe me this affected a lot of people who'd booked on the 27th January. On Thursday most of the folk at the front of the queue in Appleby told me they'd had the same experience. They found out there were glitches in the booking system that led to it and there was no way to issue retrospective seat reservation coupons to those of us who'd already paid for tickets through the system.

    So, with a little lateral thinking and some luck it was possible to do all trains with only reservations on 8. It was definitely worth going. Tornado performed impeccably. No surprise there. Signal Control managed the Skipton end and Appleby shunting superbly. Huge thanks to everyone in all the organisations who made it possible.

    I'll put some speeds and times together later. I almost lost the timing sheets for days 1 and the 0815 and 1044 trains on day 2 when a careless chap in the aisle seat spilled his coffee over the table on the 1457 on Wednesday. Thankfully I'd used permanent ink refills in the pens so just got some blurry numbers to interpret.

    After the success of this Northern Plandampf and Graeme Bunker's comments, I'm looking forward to the next one wherever it is.
     
  12. Sean Emmett

    Sean Emmett Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    489
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bristol
    Sounds like everyone had fun.
    Surely Leeds - Carlisle via S&C would make better use of the class 37s and coaches currently on the Cumbrian coast. If timed as a limited stop service it could give the option of a steam substitute from time to time.
     
  13. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    3,512
    In fact it could be called The Dalesman ( still excellent value at £50 a throw in my opinion).
     
    lil Bear likes this.
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,446
    Likes Received:
    9,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Especially the Chester starts where yo get Shap and S&C with steam.
     
  15. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's all rather disappointing for me. Mr @Dobbs0054 was quick to make an unprovoked attack on myself, yet 24 hours later - despite having been online & posted elsewhere - he's not taken the opportunity to justify himself, even with me asking for him to provide his experience (you never know, he could of worked the line).

    All rather sums up Nat Pres for me nowadays. I know a lot of knowledgeable people who stay away or avoid contributing for exactly this - genuine and honest posts being disregarded and countered with snide remarks by individuals with no experience of what they are talking about. I'm happy to be proved wrong in this case, but sometimes silence says a lot more than words ever can.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
    John Rowley, michaelh, Victor and 6 others like this.
  16. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,318
    Likes Received:
    16,396
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Best ignore them, there are plenty on NP who appreciate information from those in the know.
     
    michaelh, John Rowley, PaulT and 6 others like this.
  17. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Is there going to come a pinch point with steam on the S&C though?

    You have the Fellsman, Chester Dalesman, York Dalesman, Cumbrian Mountain Express all summer - not forgetting the Winter CME too. How well would a regular "normal" steam-hauled service be supported, and at what cost to the charters?

    This event sold as it was a first, no steam has been over the S&C for 12 months plus the media hyped it up. But could it be sustained on a more regular basis? I think sticking to the Plandampf blueprint, and altering which area is "replaced" would be a better method. It also spreads the income generated across different regions giving a boost to a greater number of communities. With Blackpool North being electrified shortly, I'm hoping this venture paves the way for a fitting farewell to the Mechanical Signalling along this line. Two rakes with 3x locos, swapping a loco at Blackpool North and simply running around in Preston - job done. Might have to make some stronger cups of tea though...
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
    RalphW and Johnb like this.
  18. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,239
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport

    Cue WCRC at Carnforth where some of its heritage diesel traction might attract a few crowds. Another thought is a possible series of Blackpool Illumination Specials for 2017; I recall the ELR's trip in 2005 was considered a success
     
  19. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Blackpool line is busy enough during Illumination season without an added Plandampf operation. Such services are best out of the normal high season, as it gives services and areas a boost in what would otherwise be a quiet time. Though I do believe organisers are missing a trick with very few charters coming to local events - Illuminations being one, Southport Air Show another but I digress.

    I believe Blackpool line shuts towards the end of this year, for a full re-opening in May 2018. Be nice to see something arranged for these final dates.
     
  20. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    14,118
    Likes Received:
    7,644
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Naughty step
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I understand Tornado's exploits on the S&C made national news on TV & radio... in the Czech Republic! :D
     
    60017 and gwalkeriow like this.

Share This Page