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Tender first running - Original Pictures - Debate

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Hurricane, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    I can't say how the LNER would have classed these 2-8-0s officially but I would think that, to the men, 06 was logical. I agree they probably never made it Derby prior to their loan period to the LNER.

    Which all raises a question to which I don't know the answer: if LNER management did not classify them as 06 for operational purposes, how were they classed? 8F is possible but unlikely as it didn't fit their system. As said, I don't know the answer.
     
  2. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    8Fs 8500-8559 were built at Darlington and Doncaster Works to Railway Executive Committee orders and loaned to the LNER until the cessation of hostilities. 68 8Fs were built to LNER orders and Class O6 was created. The first 25 were built at Brighton Works and given LNER Nos 7651-7675. The next batch were built at Darlington and given the numbers 3125-47 (after the LNER renumbering scheme). The last batch were built at Doncaster and took the numbers 3148-3167. In 1947 these locos were renumbered by the LNER to 3500-3567. Later in 1947 these locos were loaned to the LMS, taking the numbers 8705-8772. These became 48705-48772 when British Railways came into being.
     
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  3. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    We seem to have drifted off the original subject (what's new? ). My two pence worth is that in the days when photography was expensive and steam plentiful, I would imagine most photographers would have avoided taking pictures of tender or even bunker running locos so photographs don't really provide evidence either way.
     
  4. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Surely it would have been downright dangerous to run (say) a Duchess at high speed in reverse.

    I'm not over the moon about 8Fs going in reverse, due to their high-sided Stanier tenders, but I guess there would have been a strict speed limit.
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I cannot remember all that many instances of tender first running on service trains. However there were occasions when double heading was used as a means of getting a locomotive from A to B. For example I once had 34071 as tender first pilot loco to 76064 on a stopping service between Bournemouth and Eastleigh. Presumably this was just a way of getting the pacific back to 71A.

    Near the end of steam on special rail tours there were often instances of reversals and tender first running so as to negotiate branch lines where only run round facilities were available. And nowadays, that remains the case on, for example the Kyle of Lochalsh line. With that comes, of course, the potential for difficulties with fire maintenance when running tender first. I gather that the K4 prefers to run chimney first and that is partly to do with limited damper capability. We once had steaming problems on a trip with her back from Kyle. (Experts please correct me if the damper comment is wrong.)
     
  6. Forestpines

    Forestpines Member

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    I've seen pictures of Gresley Pacifics on the Corstorphine branch near Edinburgh - like the Bulleid Pacific upthread, it was a regular Haymarket fill-in turn and presumably involved a tender-first run one way.

    I can also recall seeing pictures of tender locos at New Holland Pier station - they will certainly have had to run tender-first from NH Pier to NH Town (where there was a triangle). More to the point I don't believe there was a turntable at Barton-on-Humber, but if tender locos were reaching New Holland they were presumably using the Barton branch too.
     
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  7. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Based on photos I've seen, New Holland Pier saw 4-4-0s and 4-4-2s in LNER days and Britannias in BR days. These have the appearance of express trains, whereas I suspect the Barton-on-Humber trains were a local service.
     
  8. Forestpines

    Forestpines Member

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    I doubt that New Holland saw "expresses" in any number after the 1850s.

    I've found a copy of the summer 1947 passenger timetable online, and all the trains are rather local. On a typical weekday there are 9 departures for Barton, 8 for Cleethorpes, 4 for Immingham and 1 to Lincoln.
     
  9. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    Tender first running was more common than some would expect, as a child my first railway memory was procession of 4EPB units on the Bromley North Branch which ran on an embankment next to my father's allotment. Highlight of the day was the appearance of a Hither Green Class C, always heading smokebox first to shunt the yard at the terminus returning with the freight tender first about two hours latter. Many freight turns required reversal at certain points with the inevitable tender first running, likewise if the terminal point had no turntable the hapless crew would have no option for the return journey.
    On my many travels north towards the end of steam there was a regular working to Glazebrook via the CLC, I assume the load was Yorkshire coal for the Lancashire power stations. It passed Skelton Junction about 7.00 am and returned tender firs later in the morning, the regular engine being a Heaton Mersey 8F. Another regular working came of the Warrington Line and the engine ran round at Skelton Junctionand back up to Glazebrook tender first. In better days there was a turntable at Skelton Junction but whether the crews could be bothered to use it I don't know

    For interest a couple of shots of the first working on the last day of steam in the area, 48356 Takes the Glazebrook Line at Skelton Junctionand heads up to the bridge over the Bridgewater Canal and later in the day with the return working. The signalbox and junction are the other side of the bridge in the distance.

    48356 Skelton Junc 4-5-68.jpg

    48356 Skelton Junc-2 4-5-68.jpg


    An 8F prepares to run round it's train and head back up to Glazebrook with the second train described in 1967. I think I've seen that loco a fair bit over the years since!

    48151 Skelton Junc 4-11-67.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Resident of Nat Pres

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    A couple more passenger examples, from fifty-odd years apart.

    Firstly, Gladstone class 193 at Copyhold Junction (where the line to Ardingly leaves the Brighton mainline north of Haywards Heath) on 17 February 1907.

    IMG_2462.jpeg

    (Source: The LBSCR - The Bennett Collection - https://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Brighton-South-Coast-Railway/dp/1899889612)

    55 years later and 200 miles West: "Chard" on 17 May 1962 with a single coach Padstow to Wadebridge service. This was the loco that had arrived with the down ACE: after arrival, the loco shunted the stock, then ran back (tender first) light engine to Wadebridge, where it then worked a single carriage local service from Wadebridge to Padstow and back again, before finally going on shed at Wadebridge. (Interesting that a head code seems optional down in the west country as well!)

    IMG_2460.jpeg

    Source: Atlantic Coast Express from the footplate: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Atlantic-E...=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483988587&sr=1-5

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
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  11. Hurricane

    Hurricane Active Member

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    [​IMG]
    LMS 5XP Patriot class No 5519 'Lady Godiva' running tender first and coupled to an unknown classmate has just passed under Quinton Road bridge as they progress towards Rugby station. Interestingly both have full tenders so they might have both been on a short running in trip from Rugby which might also account for their being coupled tender to tender.
     
  12. Hurricane

    Hurricane Active Member

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    I am breaking my own rules here as this is a special working rather than a normal timetabled train but double tender first!!!

    [​IMG]

    V Class No 30925 CHELTENHAM and 2P Class No 40646 on East Midlander No 5 railtour running tender-first as they approach Starbeck 13/05/1962
     
  13. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think the rules are you post pic and ask where it is, ops sorry wrong thread :)
     
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Coming a bit more up to date... 76079 running briskly tender first on the Cambrian Coast towards Dovey Junction, August 2007, which also explains the poor picture quality, just shows how much cheap video cameras have moved on.

     
  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And of course the Jacobite.
     
  16. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    I'm think that when BR still ran coal trains from Alveley Colliery, the loco's would work tender first up to the sidings there so then they'd be Smokebox first for the run towards Stourport.
     
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  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Another regular tender first working for a Bulleid was a passenger to Torrington so it would be smokebox first on the goods to Exeter.
     
  18. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Active Member

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    I'm fairly sure I've seen smokebox-first photos of that railtour so that must be down to a run-round somewhere en route.
     
  19. WSR97

    WSR97 New Member

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    Coal trains in the Edinburgh area all went chimney first to the colliery and then tender first to the docks, Leith, Granton or Seafield because it was uphill to the pits and sea level at the docks. This helped the fireman to keep plenty water over the firebox, and there were no turntables at the pits or the docks. Most of the downhill tender first working with loaded coal trains was done at pretty low speeds with both the engine and guards van brakes in use, I'm not sure if there was a requirement anywhere to pin down wagon brakes as well.
     
  20. Sir Nigel Gresley

    Sir Nigel Gresley Active Member

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    The post-war DB Class 23 was designed to run at the same speed forwards or backwards (unfortunate for photographers!).


    [​IMG]
     

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