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Steam loco survival myths

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by John Petley, May 7, 2015.

  1. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    No 18 withdrawn 1956 but No 18 lasted until 1963.
     
  2. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    A serious response to OP point (1) - strategic reserve.

    I suspect some of the reason for a main-line strategic reserve myth arising and then having some quasi-authoritative status arose in a circular format due to cold war training at places like the civil service training college at Hawkhills and the actuality of preservation and Barry. I attended several courses at Hawkhills over the years as part of my role in local authority Emergency Planning. From the 1980s onwards I recall courses during that time with scenarios of what would we do after a bomb strike etc., and using steam engines was trotted out as an option by the College staff. Add into the mix that most of those courses would not have had on them anyone with (a) detailed railway knowledge and (b) any contemporary knowledge of the reality of mixed couplings, braking systems, no coal or water sources etc., etc, the idea that steam could be used is highly likely to be spread with some authority by people believing it could be and not knowing it to be a falsehood from the training exercise.

    Word of mouth, especially after a few drinks at evening dinner parties, spreading it on the basis of "I heard it on good authority from...." would spread it further on too with several believing it true. As earlier posters have said preservation was overtly creating one unofficially and in plain sight therefore the idea there was an official one kept hidden somewhere in secret did not sound implausible when heard.

    Given that most of the general population would quite happily accept as true that George Stephenson built Rocket, the worlds first steam locomotive , and that it ran on the Stockton & Darlington Railway the idea back in the 70s and 80s that a "top secret" British strategic reserve of steam locomotives existed wouldn't appear a daft idea.

    Back in the 1970s I was an active volunteer on the NYMR, I recall it being discussed in evening sessions after the days work, not sure any of us ever really thought it wasn't fiction but the myth was around and people wanted it to be true.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
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  3. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Be fascinating to know what the Germans thought of them - or any other captured UK engines
     
  4. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    Since posting the above have also remembered there is a suggestion an engine went into Fen Bog (the NYMR Summit section) at some time in the past which would count as an extra myth to add to the OPs original list.

    Although this isn't something I've actively researched I do recall reading about this somewhere and in my memory the facts are that (a) there is support for the idea it fell in and (b) there are differing accounts/opinions postulated in books as to whether it was/wasn't rescued.

    If there is an expert on Whitby & Pickering Rly history who reads this forum and can add facts it may also aid answering the mystery of myths. If the story has been subsequently proven to be false than I've now aided the spread of the myth by mentioning it.
     
  5. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    Clearly the Belgians (?) thought enough of them to keep on using them when repairs became due.
     
  6. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    hum............

    I have heard it said that some thought was given to using preserved steam locos in the 1973 oil crisis. Clearly in those days not as difficult as now.

    Assuming however something goes very wrong - and ignoring the fact that we mine very little coal these days.

    AFAIK there are about 400 ex BR loco's left. 200 have worked in preservation and about half of these are operational at any one time. It may well be possible to either push a few through overhaul at speed or extend some overhaul periods.

    Of those 100, some are going to be to small to be widely useable

    So, how many can be turned out at any one time - say 75

    The next question must be what to do with them? My suggestion is probably passenger services, current freight stock is all air braked and in any event modern freight trains are far to heavy to steam haul.

    So, how many vac fitted coaches are avalible? - I don't know but I will assume enough to give each loco a reasonable size train.

    Obviously many safety considerations go out of the window (TPWS, OTMR, slam door stock, etc)

    I cant imagine that crews would be a problem if preserved crews are allowed to take charge. I doubt in any event speeds would be high

    My suggestion is then you run steam hauled trains in restricted areas between points where turning facilities are avalible, ideally without to many 'operating problems' eg South Devon banks

    Thoughts anyone?
     
  7. savagethegoat

    savagethegoat New Member

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    Yes ....75 usable locos with about 8 hours a day usable time less washout times etc. You couldn't even run a service on one main line, never mind the miriad smaller lines.
     
  8. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    The point of table top training exercises/what if games is to work scenarios through in advance and find the snags and whether they can or can't be overcome. The idea being that staff find out which are what seem initially good ideas but wont work in actuality for whatever reason scenarios in the calmness of a training ex so that when the biggie happens what gets put into place are the options remembered of what DID work. My point re the EPO training was that on the courses I was on my actual knowledge of the current state of the railways showed up the problems (as savethe goat would have too if he'd been on the course) but without that input on other courses it was possible these practicalities were not known about or fully appreciated.

    The scenario for getting the modern railway back up to speed even after major flooding incidents is more than just considering traction and stock as signalling and route setting have become so complex and susceptible to damage in ways the old rod and wire semaphore's weren't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  9. mickpop

    mickpop Resident of Nat Pres

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    There is a precedent for using preserved locos on service trains. In East Germany during the 1980s oil crisis several coal fired 'museumloks' were pressed into working regular timetabled trains. A BR35 2-6-2 worked a regular semi-fast train from Nossen to Frankfurt am Oder and a BR 86 2-6-2 tank monopolised the Schlettau to Crottendof branch. I think there were other examples.
     
  10. Peter Wilde

    Peter Wilde New Member

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    Interesting thread. The idea of an untouched, secret strategic reserve of steam locomotives waiting to be used in some national or worldwide crisis is a romantic one, bound to stir the imaginations of heritage fans and give rise to intriguing rumours! But was the “strategic reserve” ever going to be a viable idea?

    In the real world, few nations seem to have thought it worth doing. I recall David Wardale in his excellent book “The Red Devil” said the South African railways had discussed the idea of a national steam strategic reserve for use in an oil fuel crisis. The concept was not without merit but in reality would only be truly useful if prepared for properly, which would be very expensive. The reasoning went something like this:

    To be useful in a sudden crisis of this type, sufficient locos would have to be stored, and to replace modern traction, they would need to be ready for almost immediate intensive use.

    So, it would not be sufficient just to line up some old locos on a siding in a run down and as-withdrawn condition. Ideally, reserve locos should actually be given a general overhaul, to get them in top condition, then be immediately stored in dry, protected conditions with appropriate lubrication etc.

    Even that would not be sufficient in itself. To get any substantial amount of work out of the reserve locos, it would also be necessary to preserve a depot (or several) with tools and capability to maintain a working fleet, including heavy overhauls when they next became due. As well as the physical kit it would also be necessary to keep on a sufficiently skilled and numerous workforce for maintenance, driving and firing of the several hundred locos.

    It’s doubtful if all this ever happened anywhere; and for any railway administration thinking seriously about setting up a steam strategic reserve, the costs and practical difficulties of the above course of action would soon become apparent.

    Obviously it would still be possible, in countries that have them, to get out a few preserved locos and use them for a while on service trains in a crisis, with help from the heritage sector. But this would almost certainly be a very small fraction of what would be likely to be required.
     
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  11. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    There was a suggestion from those who went on a steam run in Russia that given the number of locomotives used and the standard of the crews it's suggests the existence of a steam reserve
     
  12. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If we're considering more-or-less present-day conditions with railways dependent on diesel traction, and then a crisis in which oil becomes in such short supply that the diesel locomotives cannot operate but steam locomotives can (presuming their availability), there would surely be worse things to worry about, not least disruption of deliveries by road of everything including food. Far enough in the future, with road vehicles mostly not using oil fuel, railways probably won't be using much of it either but some combination of OHL, batteries and/or hydrogen.
     
  13. sleepermonster

    sleepermonster Member

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    My good friend and mentor Alen Grice remembers a captured Jinty returning to Derby. If I remember his words correctly, it was overhauled and became 47600.

    Tim
     
  14. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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  15. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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  16. Peter Wilde

    Peter Wilde New Member

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    True now. But the debate is about locos surviving by way of a steam reserve fleet being set aside on (or shortly after) the withdrawal of steam from everyday service; ie the 1960s and 70s in most countries. At that time the idea would have been feasible, subject as I said to enough money being spent on preserving everything required in usable condition.
     
  17. Peter Wilde

    Peter Wilde New Member

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    That's not an impossible idea. Russia is one of the few countries where the concept might have fruitfully taken root; being vast, little visited for its size, preserving pockets of various older technologies, secretive, and at times fearful of conflicts with and embargoes by the West.
     
  18. DismalChips

    DismalChips Member

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    Sounds rather like the one discussed here: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/hunslet-1589-newstead.30096/

    This is a fascinating thread, by the way.
     
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  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    AFAIK due to the fact that European Railways were always air braked, and they seem much keener on non air con loco hauled stock then a 'steam reserve' may have been a more viable option. That and given that unlike the UK they did not have large pools of diesel locos to draw on if they had problems with the electrical equiptment
     
  20. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    If there were to be a modern strategic reserve, what would the ideal steam locomotive be? Presumably it would need to have sufficient clearances to operate across the network, and be an efficient, reliable steamer? Also, considering the availability of coal, it might need to be steam-able with wood instead?
     
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