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RSG/Meld/ and now Pinza

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by Victor, Mar 20, 2016.

  1. Victor

    Victor Resident of Nat Pres

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  2. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    It was a problem with ships going back over many years, probably down to the crappy fuels that we used to get.
    Various additives were used, the names of which escape me.
     
  3. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    Good luck fixing that. It was a lovely sight (and sound) on the NVR last Sunday; the last time I saw a Deltic on the NVR was on the Deltic Fenman...
     
  4. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Active Member

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    Certainly was , along with 34081 and 46100. A real positive vibe about the place.

    Jon
     
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Isn't this problem also related to the inclusion of bio-fuel in current diesel deliveries - which can't be isolated on delivery - and is made worse by periods of engine inactivity ? I recall this was a problem encountered by other heritage diesel owners a few years back especially with locomotives that spent long periods between usage.
     
  6. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    If I had but one railway-related grumble about the NVR last Sunday it was the violent fore-and-aft oscillation of the train between Yarwell and Wansford at about one cycle per second.
     
  7. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Active Member

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    I nearly put that in my original post- I'm used to locos 'hunting' but that was, frankly, horrible

    Jon
     
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  8. baldbof

    baldbof Member

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    Sounds like Cladisporium Resinae which was a bit of a worry if it was found in aircraft fuel. One of the measures we took to preventing it, was to regularly turnover the fuel in the tanks; regular sampling and testing was also employed. Leaving fuel to lie undisturbed in the tanks over any protracted period was inviting trouble.
     
  9. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    Oh dear, it sounds like 'Diesel Bug'. Enter that into Google and you should find plenty of information about it there. Basically, current Diesel fuel (and as I understand it the 'Red' stuff too) has a bio-content of something in the order of 7%, also water. This means that it only has a shelf life of about 6 months. The water plus any more due to condensation becomes a breeding ground for the Bug to grow and thrive in the interface between the water and the Diesel fuel above it. Apparently there are over 20 different varieties of the 'goo' produced ranging from black to a near translucent type rather akin to pond algae. This 'goo' chokes filters, and I'm also aware of a case where it gummed up the works of the hydraulic governor of a fuel injection pump on a Foden lorry 2-stroke Diesel engine - it wouldn't shut down by normal means. Additionally, the water does not do the precision fuel injection equipment any good by way of corrosion.

    For myself, with a historic Foden vehicle powered by a Gardner engine, from the first intimation (engine misfiring) to it ceasing to function at all, this can happen in less than 2 miles. I've had it happen 4 times so far, fortunately on each occasion it has happened close to home and I've managed to get it back again. Might not be so lucky next time. Various additives have been tried, on the 3rd occasion a 10x 'shock treatment, but that didn't stop it happening for the fourth time.In my case the 1st strainer is at the bottom of a 90 gallon capacity fuel tank which has to be completely emptied before one can get to the strainer itself.

    The problem is caused by intermittent use in the rally season combined with being laid up over the Winter, normal from the end of October until about May the following year. This has all been brought about by the EU (and some wonder why I'm so p****d off about it) and our Government implementing the Directive with no thought of the possible, and actual. consequences. Letters to my MP, MEPs, Secretary of States for Fuel and Transport have produced nothing in the way of a solution.

    So at the moment there would appear to be no real answer to the problem other than dump the fuel, clean out tanks and strainers, and change filters. For what it is worth I can only say that when I was on BR in the mid-1960s that draining Deltic fuel tanks of water/condensation was a weekly job. A Deltic, incidentally would get through 600 gallons between London and Edinburgh.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
  10. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    After doing some checking up since writing the above, a bit more information. After the 1st attack of 'Diesel Bug' I got some 'Marine 16' bug treatment from a nearby boat chandlers (the narrow boat fraternity have this problem too) and used it at the recommended dose. Didn't stop the bug for the 2nd time, so contacted the manufacturer who recommended a 10x 'shock treatment' plus regular dosage. This ended up with bug attack number 3. I then changed to Fuel Set' (the same stuff as the 'Deltic' people are now trying), but this was in the summer of 2014, and didn't stop another attack in June 2015. 'Fuel Set is described as a fuel conditioner, made in Australia, and claims amongst other things "prevents and dissolves fungal growth' besides 'increasing performance, reduces emissions & improves fuel economy'.

    However, since the 4th occasion I've taken other measures which are both messy and time consuming like draining the fuel system out before laying the vehicle up for the winter. If, as I suspect with the 'Deltic' it is in intermittent use throughout the year this option isn't really open to them.

    More to improve the burning ability (the Cetain rating) of the fuel, I have gone over to Millers Oils 'Diesel Power Eco-Max' - they are based in Victor country - which is about 1/2 the price of 'Fuel-Set'. I'd hate be the harbinger of doom, but cannot help feeling that the 'Deltic' people are wasting their time and money with 'Fuel-Set'. Other than doing as posted earlier I can't suggest a satisfactory solution to their problem.
     
  11. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    It has to be said that, given this seems to be a problem for diesel engines standing for a long time, that the messy (and expensive) option of draining/cleaning prior to laying up for winter may be the only option. It'd be bad enough on a lorry; what about a diesel loco with full tanks? And if the drained-off fuel was to be reused, would it need to be strained first to remove any growth and how?
     
  12. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    During the time I was in the RE's we had to put plant vehicles into long term outdoor storage. Sometimes up to 7 years.
    The usual basic procedure was full service.
    If Diesel fill tanks.
    If Petrol empty them (Not many petrol vehicles even then)
    Pad up all sharp edges, put on axle stands.
    Encase the vehicle in a big rubber bag, turn on a dehumidifier, remove batteries and leave alone.

    A couple of years later, go back to machine take the bag off, check for leaks and levels, fit batteries and push the start button.

    I don't think you need to worry about storing diesel in a fuel tank for a couple of years do you? Bruggen Michigan 275 in a bag 1981.JPG Bruggen Michigan being prepped 1981.JPG
     
  13. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    Your experience would be OK then with plain straight Diesel. The problem arises now with the bio-content added within the last 7 years or so as set out in my post 69 above. The shelf life for the modern stuff is 6 months so Shell informed me a while back. Whether it is feasible to drain it out and returned to the supplier for re-refining I've no idea.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  14. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

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    If the issue is the water/diesel interface, will brimming the tank with diesel to exclude the possibility of condensate forming help?
     
  15. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    From what I can make of it the answer is 'No' as there is already some (granted, not much) water within it. Leave it 6 months or more and it has degraded anyway..
     
  16. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Sadly the issue is the bio-fuel / diesel interface where the diesel is the "foodstuff"; in essence the bio is the parasite and the diesel is the host thus the longer the two remain together the greater the volume of algae that results - irrespective of the % volume within the storage / fuel tanks.
     
  17. Victor

    Victor Resident of Nat Pres

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    I wonder if plastic fuel tanks would solve the problem.
     
  18. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    How would that help?
     
  19. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps Victor is thinking that plastic possibly causes less or no condensation like metal does. Personally, I don't know.
     
  20. Victor

    Victor Resident of Nat Pres

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