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National lineside permits

Discussion in 'Photography' started by 73129, Dec 17, 2009.

  1. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I drive a car so I always live by that rule
     
  2. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Read it in context if I'm pointing a camera at a train, 1 I'm not in the four foot but at least 2m from it ( I do know the rules) and 2 if something is coming the othe way on a single line then the railway will have a greater problem with the ORR than worrying about a few photographers
     
  3. OK, your earlier comment suggested only on the GCR could you get "mown down" by a moving train coming in the opposite direction (perhaps on an adjacent line). This is also the case on the WSR and probably other railways too, I'm sure you'll agree.

    Steve
     
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    No sorry I can't agree the WSR has no double track. I did say a chance of being mown down, all animals including humans have an inbuilt self preservation instinct of far more value than a PTS exam and bit of paper, I know that's what the bureaucrats want so at present must be complied with but to justify their existence these non job holders will carry on regulating. In 20 years time will heritage railways be allowed to exist without being imprisoned behind high palisade fencing and no one allowed on the platform until the train has come to a halt? Who knows
     
  5. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    I can't make up my mind whether you actually believe all the nonsense that you are spouting on this thread - or if you're just trolling. Common sense (of which you are so fond) would suggest the latter.
     
  6. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    If you purchase a lawnmower from a store then it will come with a comprehensive set of instructions on how to use the device safely - which the manufacturer will have had to get approved by their H&S department and which fully comply with the the relevant legislation. If a manufacture doesn't provide this safety advice (particularly if a user suffers an injury) then the 'safety zelots' as you put it will prosecute the manufacturer / retailer because the law demands that the manufacturer has considered all risks associated with using the product and taken serious steps to make sure the user is aware of them. In other words the manufacturer (and sometimes retailers) need to have the equivalent of a SMS.

    Similarly when stores hire out power tools, H&S legislation mandates that the store must fully explain how to use the said piece off equipment and supply all necessary PPE before letting the customer take possession of the item. Again this amounts to a SMS.

    For businesses that may use lawnmowers for business purposes such as grounds maintenance, the law demands that the business must also have what amounts to a SMS, demonstrating how operatives are trained to use the equipment, its maintenance schedule and what to do if it becomes defective, etc.

    As such the differences are nowhere as great as you like to think they are.
     
  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Have you read those RAIB reports I mentioned?
     
  8. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I just have a different opinion to you, it is allowed
     
  9. I think you'll find the WSR does have running lines alongside each other. A competent linesider will treat loops and sidings as "live" and therefore no different to "double track". Trains may run at any time, in any direction. As a competent linesider, I'm sure you'll agree now.

    Steve
     
  10. 7P6F

    7P6F Part of the furniture

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    The pertinent difference is that photographing trains at zero deaths compared with mowing the lawn at thousands of deaths suggests that the risks involved in photographing trains on our preserved railways are somewhat over estimated to put in mildly. As has been said we remain a laughing stock with European rail enthusiasts. But don't we just love telling others what to do, a particularly British characteristic.
     
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  11. tor-cyan

    tor-cyan Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying we are a laughing stock because we have robust safety procedures in place?
    So then how many deaths do you feel is ok on are railways as long as you get your master shot?
    And given prevention is better that cure how draconian would the resulting fall out be it just one fatality of a linesider occurred on our Heritage lines?
    As I said upthread my cats have never died before.
    and I'll ask you the same question I asked Johnb ( which he has spectacularly failed to answer) Up thread "where do you draw the line between nanny state and robust safety procedures?

    Colin
     
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  12. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    What's the equivalent safety stats for European railways, does anybody know? The UK has a rail safety record to be very proud of and we should uphold and defend our safety culture. But how does it compare?
     
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  13. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I have been told certainly that in Germany there is less need for safety regulations, BUT there are significant cultural differences which means that they are more 'disciplined' so less likely to have accidents
     
  14. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    So what?
     
  15. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    As a retired Track Renewals Site Engineer.
    To gain access to trackside in a a safe manner here is one example that I had to do a few years back. Some procedures may have changed since then.

    After complying with all relevant safety systems, Hi Vis and PPE including Toe Tector Boots. (Not Rigger Boots)
    Provision of Look outs, T1 or T2 Possessions or similar as required by NWR. (9 options for what method of working.)
    Registered our presence on site by contacting control, answered a number of questions with regard to Method of protection, sighting distances and speeds.
    Briefed Lookouts 3 in this case, 1 Site L/O and 2 Distant L/Os
    Briefed the other member of staff with me, all signed a copy of a briefing record.
    We could then concentrate on the work in hand, Recording detail of a track renewal completed the previous weekend.
    The track was single with trains each way.
    Speed 10mph. Linespeed not TSR
    Length of worksite 300 metres.
    Time taken in total on site 45 minutes of which 20 was to gain access to the track.

    This was for 1 of 3 sites done the same day and the same procedure had to be carried out each time.
    Not advisable to skimp on these methods as there was a team of inspectors roaming around ensuring compliance with regulations.

    One other point.
    It is generally acknowledged by everybody who works trackside that High Speed lines are not the main problem, the speed and frequency keeps everybody sharp and aware.
    The lines that catch you out are the slow speed lines with infrequent traffic.
     
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    For robust read way OTT, it's difficult to to absolutely define where the nanny state starts but as a guide anything less dangerous than driving on the roads doesn't need the sort of restrictions we are seeing. The test may be the question, would an average intelligent adult be able to look after his own safety in these circumstances? On heritage lines I would say the answer is yes, on the national network no. Where our point of view is different is that I don't believe any amount of bureaucracy and training or PTS paperwork will make a scrap of difference. I will go back to common sense, one journey for me round the M25 to take the test at, say the Bluebell or K&ESR will be far more dangerous than the total amount of time I would spend in my lifetime at the lineside.
    I have tried to get figures for the carnage on continental heritage lines but none seem to be available so I contacted a German enthusiast friend and the answer is the same as here, none despite the fact that a lot of heritage running in Germany is on Plandampfs on the national network.
     
  17. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm not sure about that, they manage to kill a lot more people on their roads than we do
     
  18. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

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    Once again I refer to my previous comment regarding common sense. What is common sense to you may not be for someone else. If it was then it would be very easy for the lines to be more open to offer passes.

    I seem to recall talking to the former senior manager at the MHR (and for the life of me, I can't remember his name) many moons ago regarding track access for events and he stated that one option could be to set up a "fenced green zone(s)" with a MHR COSS/PICOW accompanying photographers. Unfortunately he stated that the "i's" would need to be dotted and "t's" crossed on the usual paperwork trail and as the preferred location of one photographer would differ from another it could be heavy on staffing with willing volunteers. As a result nothing ever came of it but to me it was a suggestion that with some commitment from all sides could resolve this issue.
     
  19. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Roadworker safety is not a good comparator. According to
    RoWSaF:
    The average fatality rate for those working on the Highways England road network is one of the highest amongst all employment sectors in the UK. Over the past ten years, 14 service provider workers and 2 Highways England traffic officers* were killed whilst working on motorways and major A roads in England. [Updated on Mon 20.02.17.]

    And that's just on the main roads.
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Read what I said again, I said driving on the road not working on but given your statistics I would suggest the HSE would be better employed in investigating road worker safety rather than railways
     

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