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LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

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    Bit harsh comparing any overhaul to Scotsman's, she's the pin up village bike of preservation having more ridden and thrashed more times than any other engine in preservation bar none! I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that it cost more to restore than a new build. A brand new replica of a Ferrari 250 GTO is many millions less than an original one and those as many as 39 of those, still I know which one I'd prefer to own when faced with the decision of a replica or an original! :)

    I actually wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that 563's condition is promising. It's been well looked after and cared for during it's latest stage in its life, predominantly indoors. The boiler is most likely to be the biggest challenge, as already mentioned.

    Paul
     
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  2. 1472

    1472 Active Member

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    Total completeness is not everything if all the bits are well worn - some to the point of being fit only for scrap.

    Sweeping derogatory statements about ex Barry locos can be quite inaccurate - each needs to be judged on its merits. The fairly recent revivals of 46447 & 41313 demonstrate the folly of believing that all the ex Barry locos are "beyond it". Most of the best ones have now been steamed in preservation but there are still several yet to steam which are far better than some currently in use.
     
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  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

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    it has to be remembered many engines are withdrawn simply because something more modern came along, and had no bearing on an engines actual condition, that she was one of the last few must be a good pointer, weak engines tend to be the first to go , where as an good one will be held on to till it's time really is up.
    As others have said lets wait and see what the strip down revels, and if the frame number does not say E 563, my phone goes off the hook, and i go off line and hide in my bunker till its safe to come out.
     
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  4. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't the "E" prefix come in after 1923?
     
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  5. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Active Member

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    Especially since this loco predates Eastleigh...
     
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  6. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Active Member

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    Frames were often replaced in "real railway" days. The idea that new frames equals new loco is a myth. Whether or not new frames counted as a "rebuild", "renewal", or just an overhaul was entirely an accountancy question, not an engineering one.
    In some works, the loco which left a works after an overhaul might have almost none of the parts of the one which went in, they just swapped them in and out. Other works were more scrupulous about keeping bits together (including tenders, in the case of Derby).
     
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  7. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    yes I know but any replacements of that magnitude in this case would make a huge difference to an historic loco and going to those lengths, you may as well build a new loco and keep 563 as it is.
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Well-Known Member

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    Given the nature of 563, I've a good deal of sympathy with this view. It feels almost like one of those heart rending court cases when I feel lucky not to be a judge.

    The old chestnut about any loco's identity being predicated on the frames is no more firm a definition for being chanted like a mantra, but the question "at what point (or percentage of metal) are you looking at an effectively new loco, albeit with a few old bits tacked on?" is a valid one.

    There has to come a point where a new new loco makes infinitely more sense on economic grounds, considering you'd have to take account of ongoing repair costs over a ?? year service life, especially if a very costly 'conservation led' restoration produced nothing more than a barely operable and delicate ornament needing constant mollycoddling to squeeze .... how many? ... boiler tickets out of it.

    You'd think the Swanage might have sent 563 to somewhere like Flour Mills for an assessme .......... Oh, righty-ho!
     
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  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    This is not a fair description of the Ian Riley overhaul of Flying Scotsman.

    Most of the locomotive has been retained. As per LNER and later BR practice with these locomotives, a quarter of the main frames were renewed (at the front end). The A3 boiler was overhauled with not a huge amount of new material.

    You can't compare the funding for the Scotsman overhaul to building a new locomotive. The challenges are different though the end result - a working steam locomotive - is the same.

    And of course, a new build Gresley A3 does not have the public backing or justify Flying Scotsman has.
     
  10. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    Don't want to speak for him, but I'm sure that in the past Ian Riley has said he'd have no qualms about replacing 45407's frames and building a new set. I'd love to know how much (from 2 ends of the spectrum) of say Tallylyn and Dolgoch remains from 1862 and the BBMF's Aircraft from their various dates of construction? At the end of the day parts wear out and get replaced. Will our children and grandchildren be so concerned in the future when say 60163 or 82045 need a big chunk of metal replacing?
     
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  11. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Here's my take on rationalising it.
    A loco has a Soul, you can't locate or replace this but if you replace a part, the soul spreads into that part. If you remove a part the Soul retreats from it.
    Thus if you replace all the parts at once, the Soul cannot spread to the new parts and it becomes a new loco with a brand new soul.
    Thus if you believe a loco is important as a collection of parts as it stands , you should preserve it as it stands. If you believe the same loco with some parts replaced is a living breathing thing with a soul, then it's OK to do that too.
    The id belonging to the frames is a concept of Accountants and nothing to do with it.
     
  12. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    I almost agree - except with the reference to accountants. You have omitted OCD enthusiasts who "need" to pin identity down to particular parts.
     
  13. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    yes I think you're right. The number doesn't matter to me, it's the beauty of the whole, either as a museum piece or a working loco, that matters.
     
  14. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Any loco, or any working bit of vintage machinery is a bit like the old mans broom, its had 5 new shafts, 5 new heads but its still the same broom, The same can be said of Steam locos, during their working lives they got repaired and overhauled many times, each time something a part here, a part there, gets replaced, to the point where if say an engines getting on for 80 years old how much of it will be the same engine that left the erecting shop brand new, to the one thats preserved today?
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Resident of Nat Pres

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    Up to a point. For example, the BBMF Lancaster has flown almost continuously for many decades. During that time it has formed a wonderful picture of what a Lancaster in flight is like. Many significant parts have been replaced - even the main spar, the equivalent of a frame replacement on a locomotive - but I have no doubt that given sufficient will, it can continue to fly for decades more - with ever decreasing “originality” but undoubtedly still a Lancaster and a fitting tribute to those that fought and died in them during the war.

    At the same time - S-Sugar in Hendon flew 100+ missions during the war, and was then rapidly retired and is largely untouched ever since. As such, it still carries the patina of a genuine wartime Lanc, and when you are near it, there is an undoubted aura of a real tangible connection to those times: not just the spirit of a wartime Lancaster, but an actual, battle-worn veteran, frayed and damaged as it finished service.

    That patina is unreplaceable. While I hope the BBMF Lanc carries on flying for as long as possible, simultaneously I hope that no-one is ever silly enough to wish to fly S-Sugar, and in the process destroy that tangible connection to the past. I don’t see those two views as contradictory, and there ought to be a place for both in preservation - but with the significant caveat that once gone, that patina of authenticity can never be recovered.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  16. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I can get on board with that, Patina must be part of it's Soul.

    Does that apply to locos such as Lode Star or City of Brum? You know, I'm not so sure it does.

    Even City of Truro isn't the same loco it was in York Museum, it has a new boiler in the fifties at the very least.
     
  17. Kylchap

    Kylchap New Member

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    We're getting a bit spiritual on this thread now!

    I see it like this. If a loco is the sole remaining member of its class and destined to remain so, I place more value on having it working, with new parts as necessary, than preserving it in a museum. If there is more than one, then I would prefer to stuff and mount one as it was when it left service, such as City of Birmingham. The other Duchess, hopefully one day two of them, can keep the spirit of the class alive.

    In the case of 563, let's get it working again, unless the cost of doing so approaches that of building a new one. If the latter is the case, build a new T3 and put 563 in a museum. It depends whether you think a new loco can continue the spirit of a class. I think it can, though I respect the view of those who think otherwise. Do you think Tornado has resurrected the soul of Peppercorn's A1 class? I do.
     
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  18. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Active Member

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    Not taking any sort of issue with the above quotes but may I use them to further the conversation....

    Certain locos can be considered a marquee product in the steam world - of course this will vary in a demographic sense and enthusiasts will always wibble and bicker as to the merits of each, but some are a "lay down misere" when it comes to public enthusiasm. Provided the marketing is up to snuff, I can see a freshly out-shopped, revenue earning 'T3' as being just such a marquee product - certainly the initial impact will be of benefit the host railway and more than likely flow on further afield to the wider scene, and a gala draw card to boot. Pre-grouping locos could well come into their own as the BR steam remembering generation dwindles - excessive age on working machinery is a wonder in itself. The 'T3' also has the benefit of the "railway children" connection; the articles I have seen written about it all make mention of this.

    There will always be a chorus calling for City of Birmingham to be steamed again, but don't underestimate what she is doing right now in terms of value to the steam scene. As she sits she may not be widely, or indeed ever, considered a marquee but given that (I believe?!) she is displayed in a non-railway context, who knows how many unsuspecting school students have had their interest piqued by a dirty great stonking locomotive that hurts their neck trying to see all of it at once!

    Fingers crossed 563 can steam again - there is so much going for this story. :)
     
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  19. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

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    Not sure what you mean by "marquee product" , not a term I've come across in the last 60 years.
     
  20. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Active Member

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    Sorry, I'm cross pollinating from the sporting world!

    To get the drift of what I'm saying, here is a quote from wiki that says it more succinctly than I ever could:

    "A marquee player is an athlete who is considered exceptionally popular, skilled, or otherwise outstanding
    "


    So, in terms of being a draw card, it can raise things up a notch, if even for a finite period of time.
     
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