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Locomotive abuse

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by johnloud, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. johnloud

    johnloud New Member

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    It is something of a mystery to me that Scots Guardsman and Leander don't get a bit more revenue earning mianline activity than they do considering the amounts of money they must have cost in doing them up. However, I remember reading that David Smith wasn't going to let just anybody drive them as he didn't want them thrashed.

    I would be interested to know, from those who actually do know, what sort of activities constitute thrashing a locomotive, and how do enginemen recognise the limitations. We see locomotives tackling Shap (for example) - the loads are not always particularly light and I'm sure the locomotives must be working close to flat out - is that thrashing it ?Or are there other ways to abuse a loco. (I'll bet that Scots Guardsman is not too pedestrian when it tackles Shap later this year!)

    Over to you experienced footplatemen !
     
  2. olly5764

    olly5764 Well-Known Member

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    I would define thrashing a loco as working it over hard. Part of the problem with a steam loco is getting the steam OUT of the cylinders, the temptation is to try and get a loco to go faster by dropping her down the rack some more, and shoving the regulator in the roof, but in actuall fact, many loco men found that easing the regulator back slightly poff the stop will allow a loco to find her own pace, which is often quicker than and pace you could force the loco to, (The modified halls, so the late Ray Tranter once told a collegue of mine, were particularly prone to this). Leaving her down the rack will simple have the same effect as leaving your car in too lower gear whilst trying to accellerate hard.
     
  3. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I believe some loco owners regard photo charters on heritage lines as a form of abuse, if they do run pasts, clap the brakes on hard, reverse and do the same thing again. I have heard the loco owner representative calling a halt on one particular charter, fearing that the loco's tyres were at risk of damage or loosening due to overheating. Maybe that's why David Smith's locos never run on heritage lines.
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That's fine providing your willing to do without the funds that such charters would bring in towards your next overhaul, not saying your wrong but sometimes earning money has to be more of concern.
     
  5. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    Make sure your photo charter has plenty of coaches with the loco to improve the braking effort. Or for that matter, make sure that the coaches you do have, have working brakes....
     
  6. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    or leave yourself enough room that you can apply the brakes with less force.
     
  7. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A very good point well made! =D>
     
  8. 73096

    73096 Member

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    you should be a driver mitch!
     
  9. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Ill have you know im an expert at it ......just wish deethy would let me go from cleaner to driver over the gala .....

    (but thanks 60017)
     
  10. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    I think something called fireman in between is missing there???
     
  11. Well leander isnt currently working at all so she wouldnt have any work lined up at all
     
  12. 37255

    37255 Guest

    Personally (speaking neither as a driver nor a loco owner), I'd think of 'abuse' as thrashing a locomotive AND then not being prepared to fix it suitably. I can't see the harm in working a loco hard once in a while - few designers intended their locos to go around in 1st valve all the time...
     
  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I think most folk with an engineering background would have trouble with that. Working hard is different from abuse. Those who work with the infernal combustion engine, for instance, will tell you that running one too gently is as much abuse as running one too hard, and gives as many problems.

    I'm not an engineer, and not involved in steam locomotive maintenance, but I would think abuse would be running the lococomotive in such a way that components are not well within their design safety margins. This doesn't just mean strength, but also things like lubrication working properly, materials working at the best temperature, heat stress/sudden changes in temperature, and a host of quite invisible subtleties. I can't feel comfortable with your definition of "prepared to fix it". Running in a way that will significantly shortens the natural working life of components seems to be a pretty good definition of abuse to me!

    I imagine its an extremely complicated subject... Consider, for instance, running A4s at very high speeds in the LNER days, when the centre big end was failure prone, would be described as abuse by most engineers for that reason even if the rest of the locomotive was running well within design margins. Once the big end design was sorted in BR days then I guess that most engineers would say that the point at which speed became abuse went a fair bit higher.
     
  14. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Loco abuse can be much more basic than "thrashing" - after all locos were built to do a days work & be worked fairly hard (in an intelligent way). They were also designed to receive the right amount of TLC.

    The following though to me are real abuse:
    1. Inattention to oiling - not removing water from axleboxes for example.
    2. Insufficient attention or understanding of sight feed lubricators.
    3. Coasting with the loco not in the proper drifting position on the reverser.
    4. On GW locos coasting with the regulator in the fully shut position (not open enough to keep the flow of oil to the cylinders).
    5. Under use of the cylinder cocks when cold/priming.
    6. Over use of the cylinder cocks when warm blowing out all the nicely distributed oil.
    7. Not maintaining the boiler at a constant steam pressure (and therefore constant temperature) creating constant thermal stress changes.
    8. Using injectors according to geography rather than the state of the boiler.
    9. Not using the reverser properly - cut off either too long or too short for the work/speed.
    10. Poor braking skills.

    I have seen all these on both Network Rail metals and visits to various heritage railways. There are excellent enginemen on both mainline & heritage railways - but there are poor examples on both as well.
     
  15. Seagull

    Seagull Member

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    Good post and I totally agree with all the points made. I would add is that a driver should only run at such speeds as needed to maintain section timings. Driving a loco harder than is needed to do so is really a waste of fuel and water and will probably increase such things as brake block wear etc. Personally ( coz the coal bill comes out of my budget!) I like to allow trains to coast as much as possible when slowing down rather than shut off late and use heavy braking. I was taught whilst training to keep the demand for steam as constant as possible throughout the journey, and to imagine a graph for braking and accelerating which should have nice gentle curves rather than harsh spikes.
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Many years ago a former March foreman was working at the NVR. One day a loco made a spirited departure from Wansford and somebody remarked that it wasn't a good idea to treat a loco in that way. The old timer replied along the lines of "if you think that's working them hard then you obviously never heard a V2 leaving March on a heavy van train." He considered that most locos on heritage lines would never get worked anywhere near as hard as they were in BR days.
     
  17. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    There have been instances in the past of such abuse out on the main line, but maybe nowadays the loco owners know who to trust--and not to trust-with their engines, so we dont now hear about poor driving standards out on the main line.

    I recall reading here a few years ago about--and I will add the words "only allegedly" here--I think it was Ian Riley's Black 5 on a run from Hull towards Doncaster, where it was reported that the owners rep on the footplate had to step in. The crew overfired the loco so that it was constantly blowing off, and the driver had both the regulater well open and the gear well down the rack. Like driving your car and not changing up through the gears as others have mentioned. Allegedly....

    46118
     
  18. Stu in Torbay

    Stu in Torbay Part of the furniture

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    [quote="johnloud"We see locomotives tackling Shap (for example) - the loads are not always particularly light and I'm sure the locomotives must be working close to flat out - is that thrashing it ?Or are there other ways to abuse a loco.[/quote]

    Not as a driver, but as someone who contributes in a very small way to the upkeep of a mainline loco, I would say that 'flat out' should be regarded as a state of operation that can be sustained for an indefinite period, without damaging the locomotive (or the crew!) in that context it shouldn't be seen as thrashing. if a loco needs to be 'thrashed' to get it and its train over Shap, say, then it shouldn't be leaving the shed in the first place. The clue is in the word. By definition, a thrashing is painful and often permanently damaging. With regards to locomotive operation it is something that should never ever be done under ANY circumstances.
     
  19. Coal Sector

    Coal Sector New Member

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    Loco getting "thrashed" is just a term for it working hard.
    most engine men wouldn't risk the loco getting broke.

    the thing is back in the day most engines would be pushed hell of a lot harder than anything today.

    in theory.....Mallard was thrashed and broke, now that is a loco getting "trashed", according to what people are saying.
    pushed so hard it broke.
    and the loco did 126mph.

    but the thing is today, prez-lines only do 30mph.
    most engines (apart from mainliners) handle empty waggons etc.
    and passenger stock at 25mph isnt the hardest of work.

    so the loco's getting "worked" isnt a bad thing.
    and its nothing to worry about unless there is something wrong with the loco.

    say 1369 at the south devon, that doing 40mph would be thrashing it.
    but running it at 15 mixed freight train with 8 waggons with the regulator against the stop is just working it hard


    i hope people can see where im coming from.
     
  20. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    Quite agree there Coal Sector, we work the locos hard up the bank at Foxfield but they are not thrashed.

    A related story here:
    When Bellerophon first came to Foxfield as a visitor we did a charter on Foxfield Bank with her. The Vintage Carriage Trust reps were on the loco with us and there we were working her in full gear and full regulator to get 4 minerals and a brake van going on the 1 in 19. Myself and my mate were thinking, "what must these guys think about what we're doing to their engine?"

    However in conversation with them during the charter they said they were more than happy with the way we were handling the loco and working it hard wasn't a problem, what they didn't like was loading it up and running it at speeds such as it had been subjected to at the KWVR, and I must point out this isn't meant as a slur against the KWVR, just that their line speeds were more than the VCT felt was suitable for Bellerophon and her advancing years.
     

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