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LMS 5699 The Winter Cumbrian Coast Express 4/3/17.

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by sgthompson, Feb 28, 2017.

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  1. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    45699 near Silverdale on the return .

     
    sgthompson, Mar 4, 2017
    #61
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  2. GBoreham

    GBoreham Member

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    Footage of 45699 flying past a dull and wet Arnside this evening.

     
    GBoreham, Mar 4, 2017
    #62
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  3. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    iancawthorne, Mar 4, 2017
    #63
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  4. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Many trips in the last year or two have had diesel assistance that arguably could have done OK without. It would be interesting to know what tipped the balance against it this time.
     
    MellishR, Mar 5, 2017
    #64
  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    There is probably only one contributor to NP qualified to offer an insight about that decision making process and would have done so before now if he was of a mind.
     
    26D_M, Mar 5, 2017
    #65
  6. Dobbs0054

    Dobbs0054 Member

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    Market forces? I know from the Buxton trip that there were many conversations about the unsold seats and even a Steward conceded a loss of confidence in the market.

    More recently, @meltonnorth has acted in a way to restore credit with postings on here reassuring potential customers. His posts about this tour were open and frank. I for one could have understood assistance yesterday due combination of an extra coach being added before a more powerful loco failed. It was a confident decision to run unassisted. The result looks excellent.
     
    Dobbs0054, Mar 5, 2017
    #66
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  7. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The point about this particular trip (out via Shap, back via the coast) is that the layover in Carlisle is short enough for the stock to be able to remain in the platform at Carlisle. So there is no operational need to shunt the train, just the turning and servicing of the loco. If a diesel did go then there would be an additional shunt movement to run it to the back. Finally, at Carnforth there would also be the extra activities of attaching a DL at the rear and removing it. So actually, if you include a diesel it strikes me as an operational complication rather than a help. So what you do is ensure that the load is manageable in the first place and conforms to the load guidelines.

    That's just an observation based on common sense rather than any expert knowledge. Other circumstances may well present different needs.
     
    Big Al, Mar 5, 2017
    #67
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  8. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    Must admit the speed of the climb from Greenholme had me convinced a can was on the rear but I was glad to be proved wrong with a stunning show from crew and loco .
     
    sgthompson, Mar 5, 2017
    #68
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  9. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    It seems to me that morning path is a bit marginal. A look at RTT suggests that there is maybe a 10-15 minute margin for the crucial decision to loop at Grayrigg. If the preceding VT and TPE run late or the CME is slow away from Carnforth, that margin can get eaten up. Then you are looped at Grayrigg for the Glasgow, pass Tebay at 50 instead of 70, looped at Penrith for the Edinburgh, 30- 40 late into Carlisle and late out to the coast. That's the risk. Maybe if the weather forecast had been wet with 40mph winds the decision may have been different-- other circumstances. When I saw Oxenholme 1141, I breathed a sigh of relief, it was going to work. Great.
     
    30567, Mar 5, 2017
    #69
  10. Dobbs0054

    Dobbs0054 Member

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    That's an interesting spin. So it's ok for VT and TPE to be a bit tardy having an impact on the Charter path? That happened when Galatea first ran the route. We were held up by the TPE. That meant a late start from Carnforth and the fantastic sight of Oliver Cromwell chasing Galatea up Shap.

    VT and TPE have their responsibilities too. If they run late and create a delay then THEY are at fault for subsequent knock on effects. We have to stop beating ourselves up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    Dobbs0054, Mar 5, 2017
    #70
  11. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    My post was not about who is responsible. Take a look at RTT, responsibility could be back in the Manchester area, and late running of the Tesco train has in the past had knock on effects. My point is very simple. The CME is due to pass Grayrigg at 1152. If it gets there after say 1205 for whatever reason and the Glasgow is on time at Oxenholme (1206), it's going to get looped. I'm not beating anyone up. I'm saying that that is the key risk to consider. Actually the most important section is the one between Carnforth and Oxenholme. Well done to all those who prepared Galatea and to Mr Chipperfield and crew for doing it in the scheduled time yesterday.
     
    30567, Mar 5, 2017
    #71
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  12. Dobbs0054

    Dobbs0054 Member

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    And the point I am making is that it is perceived as OK for the TPE or VT to be late and delay the Charter and there not to be any knock on effects for the later VT?
     
    Dobbs0054, Mar 5, 2017
    #72
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  13. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm sure it's not ok for any train to be late. But if a service train is late and that delays the departure of the charter from Carnforth, NR will always loop the charter and delay it further if another following service might be slowed down, irrespective of whether that service is late or not. It's the way it works, unfortunately. If that causes a delay at Carlisle because of insufficient time to turn the loco then it's just bad luck. Been there, seen it happen on another unrelated instance.
     
    Big Al, Mar 5, 2017
    #73
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  14. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    Just back home from this trip. It was really good and especially as blessed with good weather until the end. Galatea was a worthy substitute. RTC can't be faulted on this one, and my confidence is returning!

    John
     
    nanstallon, Mar 5, 2017
    #74
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  15. ajay9014

    ajay9014 New Member

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    I think that it was Britannia hot on the heels of Galatea, not Oliver Cromwell that day!
     
    ajay9014, Mar 5, 2017
    #75
  16. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Yesterday's trip was my 4th Northbound over Shap behind a Jubilee

    45690 9/2009 Load 10 24 mph at Shap Summit
    45699 10/2013 Load 10 14 mph at Shap Summit
    45699 2/2014 Load 11 15 mph at Shap Summit
    45699 3/2017 Load 11 28 mph at Shap Summit

    The first it was steam from Preston, while for the others it was Carnforth.
     
    Paul42, Mar 5, 2017
    #76
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Which means that this same loco was delivering a lot more power yesterday than on those previous runs. We can only surmise the reasons, but probably all of crew skill, coal quality and loco condition.
     
    MellishR, Mar 5, 2017
    #77
  18. Dobbs0054

    Dobbs0054 Member

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    Indeed it was. All these BR Standard Class 7's look alike ;)
     
    Dobbs0054, Mar 5, 2017
    #78
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  19. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    Actually, Yes it is ok!
    NR will Nearly always delay a charter if it means keeping the FOCs trains running to time. The NR performance regime that all operators had to sign up to demands it....
    A charter train that is delayed gets paid peanuts in delay penalties in comparison to delaying an FOCs train.
     
    Scrat, Mar 5, 2017
    #79
  20. gricerdon

    gricerdon Guest

    That TPE is often late but I have been lucky on the CCE/CME so far
     
    gricerdon, Mar 6, 2017
    #80
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