GWSR - Cheltenham Spa and possible extensions

Apologies, my comment was not aimed at you specifically but at a generally viewpoint I feel people seem to have.

Realism on subjects such as this are important and I agree with you a Heritage Railway must not stretch itself too far, at least not without significant thought and preparation beforehand.

The debate of what is the ideally look and overall size of Heritage Railways and their operations has been debated a thousand times over, and no doubt will be debated a further thousand times more and beyond.

I'm certainly not one to know fully what is truly the best solution, though I do believe it honestly depends and varies greatly on each individual line and their respective positions.

 

Thanks, you beat me too it!
Unlike Toddington, there is no ex-railway goods yard space at Broadway, the yard being sold off to Worcestershire Caravan Club a long time ago. There is some land on the other side of the embankment which is, I believe, earmarked for parking.

 

You do raise an interesting question Geoff, one that's never crossed my mind until recently. Do our heritage railways necessarily have to expand further if there's opportunity to do so?
Part of me hates the very idea of raising such a question, as it must for many us here, but it's one that has to cross peoples mind when thinking realistically about such matters.

There are merits to extending for sure, but far too often do we fellow enthusiasts seem to wish for it simply so as for our favourite heritage lines to be just that bit longer.
It's almost like we treat it at times like it's a statement of a railway's success and position, like reasoning the WSR is better then any other heritage railway just because it's the longest.

Certainly it's a subject that does bring up an interesting discussion in it's own right.

 

I think you are right. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I do wonder if the senior management of lines that can't feasibly expand are secretly or otherwise grateful of the fact.

 

The KWVR certainly springs to mind... Though then again, that brings up the issue on the other side of this discussion.
If you can't expand any further, how do you keep things interesting and further develop the railway? Perhaps New Builds...!

Fell back into the lake of hopeful wishes now...

 

Is it? How many of today´s preserved railways only exist because a group of people tried to do something which at the time would certainly have been seen as unrealistic?

Surely this is why you see extensions being handled through separate companies so that if the extension is a ¨bridge too far¨ then the original railway isn´t put at risk?

JP

 

That is a fundamental thing. Railways (and any other organisation) cannot stand still. They must either expand or contract and, generally, if it is the latter, it is in trouble. Expansion, though, doesn't necessarily mean expanding the length of line but having goals to achieve. As you have said, the KWVR can't really expand but, to remain successful, it must have some sort of exapnsionist policy.

I'm actually in favour of railways expanding their track mileage but it has to be tempered with realism. I come from the old school where the likes of track for extensions were begged, borrowed or otherwise acquired and spending a few pounds was considered a last desperate measure. There was no such thing as a Business Plan, just a desire to achieve the impossible at a rate that manpower, materials and, perhaps, the cash in the bank allowed. The pendulum now seems to have swung to the other extreme and money is poured into projects in the hope that the increased business will fund it. The NYMR has (unfortunately IMHO) gone to this extreme. Once upon a time the idea of providing a passing loop at Newtondale would have been a challenge that was responded to and would probably have been achieved at minimal cost as manpower and materials allowed. Now, the only consideration seems to be the cost of doing it with paid contractors/staff and all new materials, which makes it fairly prohibitive. ( Note to Bean Counter; I'm using a loop at Newtondale as an example, not saying the Railway needs it!)

 

Well the KWVR has been around for a long time and I'm not aware that they suffer from lack of expansion.

 

Actually, Steve, my principle is that development must be funded by "new" money - i.e. grants, donations, bequests etc. (I have to say I think Share Issues these days are a great way of spending a fortune on legal and professional fees but perhaps not as effective a way of raising funds except for those with a good shareholder base to appeal to). I am far from sure as to which projects you consider the NYMR has thrown its own money at to excess.

A further advantage of particularly using Grants is that somebody external has to agree the idea is sensible, viable and sustainable. As is being debated elsewhere on here (WHR Garratt), expansion usually means more locos and stock ans well as more track, so initial Capital costs is just the start of it. The expanded Whitby timetable has in part proved the exception, allowing a timetable that actually requires less mileage and the same or fewer crews but does need more kit. Working out how an expanded railway is going to exploit its new size of vital.

Going back to the comment about trying the unrealistic being the basis of the movement, most schemes started to keep a line open or rebuild one that had closed. In the majority of cases, the whole original line wasn't acquired on day one and hence it is a part of that found ethos to reopen more than is already held. Where the reality hits is the increase in requirement of stock and manpower to operate a decent service over the expanded line (and the fact that rarely - and again Whitby has proved an exception - can fares be increased proportionately for a longer journey).

Hence, there will always be the drive to expand, and good reasons not to, but each case has a different balance of what is the "right" answer in that case. If the extension is short, may enable a more balanced service or in some other way better use existing operating assets and improves the attraction of the journey, then go for it. If reasons to expand can readily be seen as "excuses" (and I am afraid that, despite the enthusiasm with which some local authorities have thrown money at making such things possible in a couple of places, "we can attract mainline charters" looks as though it will rarely be a business case in itself), then there should be a very big pause for breath.

I think you are being a it hard on "new materials and contractors", Steve - although I don't doubt they might not be needed on all occasions. The reasons we are now generally using new track materials on the NYMR is running line standard used materials with enough life left to make putting them in worthwhile are much harder to obtain now Network Rail has generally (although there does seem to be some local variations on this) realised that worn "fast lines" can be perfectly acceptable sidings or station loops. The fact that we have had to renew a few areas where the NYMR has already renewed the track in preservation because concrete sleepers having a life of 70 years doesn't mean that you have 70 years from when you pout in the 45 year old ones 30 years ago has also been a factor!

The other issue for operating lines, and where Grant funding is involved, is that the time-slot available to complete a project may not allow the "beg, borrow, s***l and do it yourself" approach. Grant funding has to be spent in a certain period by the grant making body, access that disrupts existing services too much is unattractive and even donors might like to think they have a decent chance of living long enough to see the job done! That said, I am sure most lines can think of externally assisted jobs where after the grants, donations, extra costs to do quickly and outputs required by the Grant makers, you are left wondering whether doing it slowly, cheaply and without outside cash might have ended up being cheaper!

Steven

 

Never was suggesting railways that don't expand suffer, I was merely touching on the subject of what heritage railways would do to keep developing themselves and maintain interest amongst public and enthusiasts alike. If indeed they can't actually expand themselves in running line length.

Though I'm not about to question KWVR on being able to do such things. One of the very best lines in my opinion.

 

A lot of the points as to whether expansion is worthwhile have revolved around passengers and revenue which is undoubtedly a key factor, but perhaps another consideration to look at it is "Will expanding the railway attract more volunteers?". Obviously a raised profile for the railway will (hopefully) attract new volunteers but if not then again you would have to question whether it is worthwhile. Much better to have a couple of hundred volunteers comfortably operating a 12 mile railway than the same number struggling to run a 20 mile line with additional trains, infrastructure etc. And with an aging volunteer force (I believe Steam Railway highlighted this), it's only going to get harder.

 

Some extensions have definitely been real winners - tbe Bluebell to East Grinstead, the Swanage Railway to Corfe Castle and Norden, the NYMR (well, it's a sort of extension) to Whitby. I think that the GWSR reaching Broadway will boost visitor numbers, although it's a pity the station isn't so convenient for the village as, say Corfe Castle or Haworth.

Going back to the GWSR's southbound extension towards Cheltenham, I am quite intrigued. It is obviously being given some serious consideration as there is mention of it on the GWSR website, but I find myself asking what the benefits might be. The starting point is to evaluate the pros and cons of Cheltenham Race course:-

Positive: Good parking facilities. Not in an area known for regular vandalism. Accessible from north, east and west without being stuck in Cheltenham's appalling traffic jams.
Negative: Nothing to do for people arriving from other stations (except on race meeting days) It's too far to visit Cheltenham town centre on foot and it's even further to Lansdown station. Inded, I don't think there are any convenient buses either, but may be wrong here. It's not like e.g., Tunbridge Wells Central to West (for the Spa Valley Railway) or Loughborough Midland to Loughborough Central (for the GCR) both of which are reasonable length walks. Also, the parking is subject to maintaining a good relationship with the race course owners.

So what about a southbound extension?

1) If it was near enough to Cheltenham town centre and attractions (e.g., Pittville Pump Room) it would offer a much better destination for visitors joining at Toddington (or Broadway when the exetnsion is open) However, even a site near where the old line crosses the A4019 road on an overbridge would still be about 15 minutes' walk from the town centre.
2) It would free the railway of being beholden to the owners of the race course for parking
3) Another tunnel (Hunting Butts) as tunnels are always a bonus with children!
4) Without massive expenditure, I would be amazed if the line could be extended close enough to Lansdown to enable people to walk from that station to the new Southern terminus, but would be happy to be proved wrong. I don't think there is a new formation possible to link the two unless you branch off striaght away at the south end of Hunting Butts Tunnel.
5) Finding a suitable terminus site with sufficient car parking would be a challenge
6) How could vandalism be prevented? At very minimum, like the Bluebell Railway at East Grinstead, signalling would have to be colour lights, with cables buried in a deep trough
7) Would a more central location attract more patronage from Cheltenham residents? A bus service would help. However, particularly for anyone coming from south of the town (Churchdown, Gloucester or further afield), they would have to drive through an area of the town prone to very bad traffic problems on weekdays to reach such a location. It would be of little benefit to them
8) Residents on the proposed route of the line may object to the sound and smell of steam engines running near their houses.

No dount the directors are chewing through all these points. It will be interesting what their plan will be. I'm open minded about this extension. On the one hand, there do seem to be a lot of challenges. On the other, it would be good if they could be overcome and another stretch of disused railway could be restored. I always feel a bit sad when I have walked along the A4019 under that bridge and imagine what it was once like.

 

There is a bus service from CRC to the mainline station, service D does town centre, spa station, CRC, Bishops Cleeve, and my house. about a 10 min walk from CRC, but it is often mentioned it is hoped to make the bus come closer. At the spa station, it drops off outside the door.

Apart from that you're pretty spot on John as far as I know.

 

Here's one I made earlier...

 

Is your kettle on?? if so, expect most of nat pres to be knocking on your door

 

Oh gawd!

 

And if the yeti comes, hide the cat the last time he tried to "make friends" with a cat, it didnt go too well

 

Wouldn't worry me, too many cats in our street, distracts the dog.

 

Do tell us more!

 

i did have a picture somewhere but i cant find it