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GWR Royal Saloons

Discussion in 'Heritage rolling Stock' started by Peter Hall, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Peter, you will be aware that there's been a lot going on in recent times and whilst I am more than happy to sit down again with you with a cuppa, time has been horrendously short. I do apologise for that, but there is only one of me - and one of the manifestations of that is that I have not been on NatPres as much recently. Please don't take either as suggesting that I'm not interested or don't want to help with your enquiries. You are correct that 9006 has never been owned by St Modwen, and neither has it been owned by said former director of GWSR. Some things can be said on a forum, other things can't just yet.

    Time for another cuppa? You'd be very welcome.
     
  2. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    So does the GWSR have any connections at all with then other than they visited for a short while?

    Thanks :)
     
  3. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    No. Simple as that I'm afraid.
     
  4. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Thank you, pity, I'd love to be able to help restore that...
     
  5. nick813

    nick813 Active Member Loco Owner

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    9006 WAS a NRM vehicle......then sold to this unnameable individual.
    I can find no tender forms or any mention of that it was up for sale.
    On this basis can I please purchase Flying Scotsman?
    I to could then store it outside at some remote location and watch it melt in to the ground...or better still Mallard?
     
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  6. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    And I'll have the M7 and coach please, it would go nicely in my back garden :)
     
  7. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    9006 has NOT been sold. We followed full process towards its disposal, and its transfer has been long and drawn out for various reasons. I'm happy to talk about it once it has been concluded, but at present it is still ongoing so please respect that until everything has been completed.
     
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  8. nick813

    nick813 Active Member Loco Owner

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    Thank you Mr Coulls for the correction re 9006.
    I can, once all the paper work etc is complete I can request a FOI from the Science Museum/NRM?
    Would be an insight into the workings of this Public body and the policies of asset disposal.
    I understand that some years ago the Museum scrapped a GWR Mess van that was unique.....another FOI required me thinks


    Nick
    Doing my best to look out for the heritage carriages and wagons ...the Cinderellas of Railway Heritage.
     
  9. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Something being 'unique' doesn't mean it has to be preserved. And I presume the Mink was only unique because it was the *last* one. That doesn't make it any more important.

    The NRM has limited space/resources.

    I'm not sure what you think your FOI requests would achieve.

    What do you think the NRM should do? Preserve everything?

    Richard
     
  10. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Presumably, if something was preserved in the first place there was a good reason, and the NRM certainly doesn't set out to preserve everything so there must have been good reasons for de-accessioning a particular vehicle. I just hope that it wasn't the fact that that there is another example in private hands, though, because we have all seen sidings full of vehicles that look anything but safe.

    I think that pressure will grow on the NRM to dispose of more vehicles as time goes by - I have heard bitter complaints from people who work there that there is any amount of money available to provide brightly coloured interpretation boards, but virtually none for restoration/conservation. Anything in the collection that is unrestoresdd and not on display is therefore probably at risk.
     
  11. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Nick, just ask me and I will find out for you if it relates to vehicles - certainly easier and less hassle than an FOI!

    I am not sure the story of scrapping a GWR Mess Van is true, the world of preservation is littered with stories, myth and legend.

    Somewhere on here, some while ago, I went through the disposal procedure - and exhibits aren't assets - asset disposal is something else in a museum.
     
  12. nick813

    nick813 Active Member Loco Owner

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    Hello, thanks for any comments
    I will not be adding anymore to this site.

    Nick
     
  13. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Member

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    Anthony, it was following our deliberations in 2012 & 2013 that it was concluded that 9006 along with 80970, M707111 & 47484 had passed from the collection to the former G&WR director along with GWR Toad Brake Van 56518 which we concluded was never part of the collection despite being located at York. Interesting that you now say that 9006 did not pass to the said gentleman. That being the case, are you still sure about the other four vehicles? At the time of our deliberations we disagreed about the location of 9007, thus my original posting here, but it does now appear I was correct. I appreciate that you have inherited many 'cans of worms', 9006 & 9007 being two of them, and that you are working to resolve these and understand that you can say little publicly until finally resolved. Unfortunately, whilst ever 9006 & 9007 continue to deteriorate at Carnforth questions will continue to be asked.

    Certainly worth another cuppa?
     
  14. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Ah Peter, you do better than my failing memory! 9006 was going to go to said owner but didn't for reasons I shall divulge over said cuppa!

    80970 was indeed transferred as was M707111.
    47 484 was never part of the collection certainly I can tell you that.

    9006 & 9007 are drawing to the end of a long paperwork process which ought to be sorted by the time we meet and I am looking forward to handing the keys for both of them over to the new custodian.

    Shall we fix a date via email?
     
  15. Corbs

    Corbs Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean the whole of natpres or specifically this thread?
     
  16. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Member

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    I do believe that following deliberations with Anthony and others my records as accurate as they can be with regards to rolling stock that has constituted the National Collection or has been associated with the NRM. With regard to the scrapping of a GWR Mess Van I have no record of anything that fully fits that description.

    The only GWR vehicle to have been scrapped is Collett Composite Kitchen 9605, the circumstances surrounding which I am sure all are aware.

    GWR Toad Brake Van 68499 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9127 did see departmental use before joining the collection, It was de-accessioned in 2003 and as far as I am aware us still at Elsecar.

    As mentioned in an earlier posting GWR Toad Brake Van 56518 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=12552 was located at York for several years but never accessioned into the collection. This had seen departmental use before moving to York. As far as I aware thus is still located at the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway.

    I note that in a response to Nick it is inferred that the vehicle to which you refer was a Mink. The only Mink that I aware has been part of the collection is 112884 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7051 which as far as I am aware us currently in display in the South Hall at York.

    I 100% agree with Anthony that "the world of preservation is littered with stories, myth and legend" and suspect thus could be another. Experience tells me that if a number is quoted the story could have substance, if a number is not quoted then it is most likely a myth.
     
  17. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Member

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    Anthony, I suspect you are getting wagon 47484 (see post 33 in this thread) http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9940 (1976-7006 - de-accessioned 2006) confused with locomotive 47484, never part of the collection, both of which are now at the premises of said gentleman.

    Email in the post.
     
  18. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Of course I am getting confused, thanks - serves me right for not cross-referencing! Email received thank you and will consult diary in the morning.
     
  19. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Member

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    Done a bit more digging and concluded that Nick was referring to the VCT entry for DW56516 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=6577 I do though believe that thus is actually a duplicate entry for http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=12552 brought about as a result of 56518 being wrongly recorded at sometime as 56516.

    My notes of visits made to the Museum on 24/4/92 and 9/1/93 show 56518 to be positioned exactly as “56516” is shown in the 1/7/92 photograph. To its left was 68499.

    I have discussed these vehicles with NRM curators Anthony Coulls and Bob Gwynne who have checked the NRM records. It appears that although both 56518 & 68499 did pass to the NRM only 68499 was accessioned to the National Collection. 56518 subsequently passed to the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway c1996. 68499 was de-accessioned from the National Collection in 2003.
     
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  20. K14

    K14 Member

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    That sounds familiar; I'm sure that I've heard this discussed either here or on the Yahoo GWR list (**think** it was someone from the G-WSR enquiring about its identity). It's very easy to mis-read the numbers as they're not always clearly stamped in the frame, & a partially stamped 8 could easily look like a 6.

    Whatever its I.D., it's not unique. There are a number of 56xxx Toads around & at least one Departmental Crew/Mess Van conversion:

    http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/263/263.html

    Pete S.
    C&W Dept.,
    GWS Didcot.
     

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