Green Arrow

That is what I fear, these people are being brought in not as rail enthusiasts but as Dr Beeching types to chop the organisation and its collection down into a much smaller size and with what's left static and gathering dust. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the three locos given away so far are just the beginning to test the water. If such people are being transferred from the Treasury that says it all. They probably laugh at those playing trains and haven't a clue what a V2 is.

As for Flying Scotsman, The LNER treated it as special from the beginning. When new It was exhibited at the British Empire exhibition in 1924 and I understand lots of parts were specially polished etc to prepare it for display. It also was of course named after the train of the same name. It hauled the first ever non stop train from London to Edinburgh etc so it was used for publicity purposes by the LNER on a number of occasions. I understand the policy of the national collection was to preserve no more than one type of each wheel arrangement from each railway, so Mallard was selected as the LNER Gresley Pacific and Flying Scotsman would have been considered at the time as a duplicate. If it wasn't for Alan Peglar buying it when he did, I expect it would have gone for scrap.

I don't believe they can justify getting rid of it as remember it is only a short time ago that they made such a big thing of buying it in the first place and lots of people donated money to them so they could do so. How could they justify then so soon transferring it to another organisation.

 

FS was run into the ground before the NRM purchased it, it had been in my view badly modified without due regard to the impact on known to be weak parts that the extra power would put extra stress on , once the extent of the faults became known, it was far in excess of the in house capabilities of the NRM, but it wasnt accepted it was beyond them till much money had been spent it was only once it was taken on by an engineer who's only interest was to do the job properly that all the faults were tackled, Green arrow has not been been subjected to such modifcations and it's condition is well known, the monoblock will have to be replaced what ever, as part of the NRM, the only acceptible option in an very expensive dupicated casting of the original block, where as the A1 trust could use the mixed cast and fabricated design they intend to use on the Prince of Wales .

 

Two things, the FS we see today has very little in common with the A1 that was exhibited in 1924 which is probably why it wasn't selected for the national collection in the first place. Secondly if it is now the policy to cut down the size of the collection then bring it on. Green Arrow could go to an organisation who would make use of it, another Steam Railway fund raising campaign and we could see a V2 running again, the Q1 was doing a much better job on the Bluebell than gathering dust in the warehouse in York.

 

Quick question: What is it about the V2 that people like? Is it something that has historical roots or something that has developed with running in preservation times?

 

That's true but I think they have probably put a lot of emphasis on the run into the ground before we got it line, to try and shift blame. Remember it was running on the main line so it was no Barry rebuild when they got it. I remember reading what happened. I think the NRM did the chassis and Ian Riley the boiler, It was all stripped down and then put all back together and they thought at the time almost ready to start running again ( it was painted in Wartime black). Then some guy had the job of fitting I think the TPWS/Air brake work near the end. When he was in the pit underneath noticed lots of cracks in the frames (that hadn't been picked up at all in the original NRM strip down). It then it had to be all taken apart a second time and they made the decision to replace the front part of the frames. I think it was probably at this point it was all handed to Ian Riley to do, and I expect the final job is now excellent.

So this is probably why the final bill was so high and many delays. The chassis was stripped down and put back together again twice

 

Why? What's wrong with three separate cylinders (and whatever other replacement parts are needed) to allow the locomotive to run, while the original block is put on display?

 

Sorry i don't buy that. as part of the overhaul frames are generally given an ultrasonic test to detect cracking and this would have shown the hornguides to be an issue I.m assuming this was either not done by NRM, or not done right , or if they were discovered a decision was taken not to report it, because the project could have been at risk, the funding withdrawn .

 

I had a search to find any information. Here is her Linkedin profile:

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/judith-mcnicol-2330402b

Extrapolating from the 2010 - 11 accounts and allowing for her promotion, she is likely to be pocketing about £125k upwards.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229153/1238.pdf (Page 42)

 

I don't think there is anything technically wrong with having three separate cylinders, but this was something that was a modification from BR Days so if you want it to be authentic then with this it couldn't be in LNER colours. Have a read here in the NRMs doc it tells you more about it . It also says as Green Arrow was intended to be preserved in original condition it was deliberately marked to be not modified when it was with BR

 

Whatever else we may think, if its not run by people who can convince the government and the public to shell out the cash to run it then the result will be grim.

 

Ah, so the cylinder is getting a bit thin due to corrosion. A weld repair is possible, but the amount of heat going in, if its over a large area will a. distort the casting. b. set up a lot of residual stress which c. may lead to cracking further down the line. There are companies that can do it, but if you are taking the monoblock out anyway, which you are going to have to to reskim and reline the valve and cyclinder bores due to above distortion, why not just make a new fabricated block IMO?!


As for bean-counters versus Engineers. It is incumbent upon Engineers to COMMUNICATE effectively what they are doing to others, of all disciplines. Really gets my goat when people say "it takes as long as it takes" which is indeed true, but most people require more effective communication than that to build trust and a cohesive relationship with the various stakeholders. As part of professional registration, there is a keen emphasis on communication and engagement. I speak as an Engineer.

I dont give two hoots if the head of the NRM doesnt know what spanner a 3/8 BSW nut takes, who cares! that not her/his job!

Scotsman was a monumental FUp. I balked when I saw the final bill, but if it means future projects are handled properly, then it was worth the money. And anyway, its running like clockwork now and is possibly the best ambassador for the museum, and maybe even the country.

Isn't it great that tourists come over here and see the real life Flying Scotsman in steam, running at 75 on the main line? What more could you want? Not to mention the inspiration it gives to young potential engineers of the future... Its done, yes it was expensive, but the merits outweigh the costs when you think it through. Can we stop beating the NRM for making a mistake, at least they had the marbles ot follow it through to completion, when many others would have bailed out as the bills rose.

I do think the V2 on a long term loan is a good idea, with Riley's contracted to do the work and upkeep. Someone out there must fancy that as a proposition? Although on saying that, in a few years we are going to have an A3, a couple A4's, a P2, an A1 and an A2, I like many would love to see the V2 in amongst that lot, LNER bias is strong from this keyboard, but I speculate weather there will be an appetite with so much other LNER metal on offer...???

 

All the recent evidence seems to point to the NRM preferring de-accessioning an item to entering into a long-term loan agreement. (I'm not saying I would support de-accessioning; just that a loan seems unlikely to my eyes, given recent history).

Tom

 

And that is an issue, Someone is looking at a spreadsheet, and saying, if we give this engine, this coach to X organisation we save Y each year, over 10 years we will save C , we can then "invest " that space by moving this or that to make more revenue earning space, film screen screens playing old railway films, for an fee. so it becomes revenue . some aspects may work better, my main criticism of some Museums is they are sterile dead, rows of clean exibits, no Smells, no sounds,imagine how 35029 would be if it had audio visual enhansements the sound of the chuffs, steam from the valves the smell of smoke ?

 

Are there any engineers/accountants reading this who can give us an idea of the kind of money needed to make a new monobloc, either cast to original spec or fabricated? How many multiples of £100k are we looking at?

 

That's a very good question, I would guess it's more to do with what 60800/4771's done in preservation, My own story is as follows I was lucky enough to cab it at the NRM at the age of 8, at 15, I went from York to Newcastle with it, at 21 it was the highlight of a weekend away at the NYMR and then 2 years later then at the age of 23 we had our final fling together at the SVR with the Teaks. I think all the love comes for it because it's a proper 'peoples' engine.

 

Modern management thinking is that you do not need extensive knowledge of your 'product', you need to have proven skills/experience of managing at an equivalent level. i.e. if you are a senior manager of a company selling product A you can be a senior manager of a company selling an unrelated product B. The skill set is the same whatever the product is.

Don't believe or agree with that concept myself but it is prevalent thinking in todays business world.

 

My love affair with V2s began when I first heard Peter Handford's "Railway to Riccarton" LP. The sound they made storming over the Waverley Route did it for me and was delighted when 4771 returned to the main line.

 

I like it, but it isn't necessarily my favourite, and not travelled behind it much. One trip I can remember though was going to the Great Central railway, I think for the first time. I drove down the slope into the car park at Rothley and it was in the station (in BR colours) with a longish train, a great column of black smoke rising into the sky + safety valves blowing off. I parked quick and bought a ticket and jumped on and it set off accelerating hard to quite a speed, I was in the buffet car and they were serving cooked breakfasts and the train was busy inside. Then another steam train passed the other way on the double track and I thought wow, this is the real deal . I am not old enough to have experienced BR steam but it was about as close as you can get today. It was almost like time travel Great day.

 

Your statement is incorrect. One of Riley's engineers noticed a mark on one of the horns. Further investigation found it was a crack. More investigation found further cracks in other components. I think I am correct in saying that there were no frame cracks. The front end of the frames were replaced because of corrosion/distortion.

 

I think the cracks were in the frame stretchers, as well as the horn blocks and the frames were distorted. If you wish you can read the NRMs own investigation of what went wrong here are there is a full investigation report on it here https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/...17/06/flying_scotsman_report_october_2012.pdf