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Green Arrow

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by ssk2400, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    Not sure any decent journalist should hold back from reporting for fear of upsetting the subject? The NRM's actions lately have at best been questionable and have certainly been evasive. They certainly warrant investigation.
    And far from shying away, the NRM have given a full interview to SR that went some way to explain their actions, (even if I disagree with some of that reasoning). Would they have given that interview had SR not been critical? Who knows, but I would suggest perhaps not so likely.
    The NRM has long been held in high esteem, rightly so, but that should not make it unaccountable with its actions and the railway press is well placed to do this. SR still shifts over 30,000 copies a month, pretty impressive when print magazines and newspapers are falling out of fashion.
     
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  2. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    From what I have read with the mono block casting, it is not cracked or anything, it is rusted I believe at the top in the middle where presumably ash/water etc has got into the top of the casting from the smokebox and rusted it causing it to be thin in this area. There seems to be specialist companies now that can weld things like cast iron and do repairs on cracks etc. Whether they would be able to do anything to build up the thickness I don't know, they would need to access it I guess.
    I believe most of the NRM Engines were preserved because they were the prototype of a particular design or the most original example so probably why Green Arrow was chosen. The design was later changed to three separate castings for each cylinder as it is makes it easier to replace if one gets damaged etc. Also the Swing Link front bogies for them were redesigned due to a number of derailments in wartime. (there is lots on the P2 website about that as the P2 apparently used an almost identical design front bogie)

    I very much doubt the NRM will restore it to run again and indeed they seem to have more or less given up on the idea of running stuff. I expect even Flying Scotsman will probably run until it needs overhaul again and then be retired to the museum. To give you food for thought, I read Mallard was restored to working condition for £35,000 in the 1980s compared to the millions spent on the mechanically similar Flying Scotsman.

    Would be interesting if anyone has first hand experience of restoring Mallard and the other locos in the 1980s for them to comment on how it was done then
     
  3. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I understand that the work on Mallard was only enough to give it a short mainline career and, of course, the standards required now are vastly different. The FS overhaul was a sadly mismanaged affair and I'm sure the A1 trust could have built them a new A3 for the sort of money they spent. I hope you are wrong about having it stuffed and mounted, that's not what a large number of people contributed to the cost of purchase and overhaul
     
  4. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not fair to compare the two, Mallard was restored with a limited steaming ticket (20 steamings only?) also Scotsman has pretty much continually worked all its life bar the long gap between 2005-20015. Mallard has only done 2 years work in its second life. I wonder how much of an overhaul 35k would buy you at today's prices? They may have been mechanically similar but one was mechanically shot. As I say you really can't compare the two.
     
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  5. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that Mallard was in probably better overall condition to start with than Flying Scotsman so that does account for some of the difference, but now Flying Scotsman has had effectively two bodged overhauls in a row. Remember it also had a lot of money (Millions) spent on it in the 1990s at Southall by its previous owner Tony Marchington but there was lots of internal negative discussion (on here much of it) about the work it had done on it at Southall. Royal Scot had the same team on it and resulted in Bressingham eventually having to sell it as they spent so much and then had an Engine that didn't run at all properly, (they couldn't even get the red colour correct), only once it was sold to LNWR Crewe did a new team finally get it sorted and working as it should.

    From what I can see the difference is in the experience of the people, John Bellwood who was the NRM Director in the 1970s and 80s then was someone that had spent his entire life working on steam locos and was once in charge of three loco sheds so had decades of experience maintaining/repairing/overhauling steam locos when they were in daily use. There was also people like Kim Mallon who were similarly also very experienced, so they were enthusiastic and knew genuinely what they were doing. There is plenty of youtube videos made at the time. I expect almost certainly they did a lot of the work themselves and had the knowledge to supervise others including volunteers etc. Sadly both are now dead, Even Richard Gibbons while from a Marine Engineering background clearly did a lot of great work too but then he retired.

    If you can do the work in house it is much cheaper. For example I changed a rear wheel bearing on my car recently. The main dealer quoted £480 to do the job, (£110 per hour labour cost). I found the part brand new on ebay for £30 + free postage and fitted it myself. Restorations are the same thing, if you have to contract it all out, and can't do any of it yourself, it ends up being a crazy price
    ( £480 instead of £30 for the same thing) and you have little control over when the work is done or the quality etc.

    The standard of overhaul today I expect are little different compared with say the 1980s apart from the need to install the extra electronic Safety equipment such as TPWS etc if you want to go main line running.

    Now I read the NRM head is Judith McNicol, who is she ?, the previous one was Paul Kirkham, who is he ? Does she have any experience at all with Railway Engineering, almost certainly not, She probably doesn't know one end of a screwdriver from the other ...... that is why locos like Green Arrow will never run again. Mostly I would expect it is just a job to them and they probably have no real interest in railways at all so couldn't care less if such and such a loco ever runs again.

    It is a shame that Steve Davies departed as I thought he did some excellent stuff in the short time he was in charge. He clearly also was a genuine enthusiast and I think he would have really turned stuff around.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
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  6. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    Sorry, but heading the museum is about a lot more than knowledge of railway engineering - the Head of the Museum's job in respect of loco overhauls is to be involved heavily in deciding which loco should be overhauled n(consulting with others, including engineers), ensure that the engineers present a properly costed (no 'it will cost what it costs') and developed (no 'it will be ready when it is ready') plan and use that to ensure that the funding is in place. Paul Kirkman came from the Treasury, so would be well used to any contact with any form of 'engineers' not resulting in these basics bearing any resemblance to what happened next (especially if he was used to dealing with the MOD Budget!)

    The engineers need to develop that plan against the requirements and specification set by wider management and then deliver what they have promised.

    During the course of this, unforeseen difficulties may well arise, and problems may occur and then non-engineers and engineers need to work together in an atmosphere of mutual respect, openness and trust. This is not helped by an attitude of 'you aren't an engineer so you aren't competent to do your non-engineering job'!

    None of which requires the head of the the Museum to even know what a spanner is, never mind which end is which!

    Steven
     
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  7. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Which engineers are you referring to?
     
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  8. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I was referring to the attitude seemingly inherent in the quoted part of @toplight's post - I have met people with the full range of attitudes, and know others who have too!

    And will readily admit that 'non-engineers' are all too often guilty of not appreciating the need to listen to their input as some engineers can be at not considering others of having a part in the process!

    Steven
     
  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    But wasn't FS at the sort of age and mileage when back in the day it would have been scrapped and replaced with a new locomotive because it would be more cost effective than repairing the clapped out one?
     
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  10. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    FS's place in history was assured by being the first loco to be officially recorded at 100mph.

    But I would wager engines probably in better condition than FS at the time of withdrawal fell before the torch... it is a pity Papyrus never survived, having hit 108mph...
     
  11. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    Or indeed, 'Lady of Lyons'.

    (Descends ladder, and secures hatch on nuclear bunker...)
     
  12. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    How true the tale is I don't know. But the story goes that the Late Alan Peglar joking remarked that he'd have preferred to preserve Papyrus, but the Yanks couldn't pronounce "Papyrus!":eek:
     
  13. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Indeed, yet neither was deemed essential to the national collection at the end of their respective working days.
    Totally agree that from a purely rational point of view, building a new A3 rather than restore FS would have been wisest but would the same funding have been available to do so?
    The other slightly intangible benefit is that hopefully a new generation of steam loco engineers were able to cut their teeth on the FS overhaul which should assist the sustainability of the wider industry in due course. In that sense, the collosal sums spent can perhaps be seen as some form of state investment.
     
  14. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

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    As a LNER stable is slowly being formed in Darlington, wonder if in time she could be handed over on a long term loan???

    Close enough to York and Shildon for any exhibition, close enough for a Scarborough job or 2, and the engineering capability certainly exists.

    Certainly the A1ST have another loco, on the " to do " list, how about a ready made one, although it needs work??
     
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  15. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    How do you put a value on an exhibit though, a non engineer minded pen pusher may know its valued at x£ but what is the value to the people who stand and look at it, for instance, cold and dead its just 100 tons of painted metal, but if in steam , its a living breathing object, it smells, of oil, of steam coal it attracts people, let me give you an example, 60103 dead in the museum will attract because of wht it is, but people will walk away only with the image, drag it into the yard, if it needs a test steaming, allow the public safe and sensible access to it, give limited footplate rides up and down the yard, and people will go away saying, we rode in the cab of flying scotsman and whats the value of that? an engine in steam gives you so much more, i'm not saying restore every NRM to steam, but it could have guest engines staying over at york in between rail tours that once a month, are in steam in the yard .
     
  16. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    As I posted months ago, if you want to know the direction in which the NRM is developing, read the policy documents of the Science Museum Group. It is my belief that most old fashioned railway enthusiasts will be horrified if they can see past the management jargon. With regard to Judith McNicol, I know little about her except that she was central to the gutting, or deaccessioning as the SMG call it, of the National Media Museum.
     
  17. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Why not just gift it to the A1 trust, on the understanding that once done, either that, or Tornado or even Prince of wales in between rail tours can be displayed a certain number of times in steam at York ?
     
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  18. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    The appointing of someone from the treasury was the first sign, in other words, i believe that laid the foundation for the " new look NRM" Where i fear the bottom line will be on attracting revenue at the cost of the soul of what the NRM should be , and the down sizing of the collecton has created an case history for future decreases in the artifacts owned by the Museum, for instance , someone wants to have more hi tech information screens, sees a engine slap bang where they envisage their information tech based exibit well we let 2 engines go, cant we let another two go? they will go to good homes, and i can have my screens, everyone wins, its just another engine , and there are others .
     
  19. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Much of the enormous cost of the FS overhaul was due to faults that weren't apparent until it was stripped down. While there could likewise be some such faults on Green Arrow, they are very unlikely to be anywhere near as bad. Allegedly also some of the initial work on FS, before the job was handed to Ian Riley, was poorly managed and/or poorly carried out. That lesson has been learnt and the same will not happen with Green Arrow, if and when it is overhauled.

    It has been suggested more than once that the solution for the cylinder block is to make and install a new one, in one piece or more likely separate pieces, and place the original one on display. Preserving it as a unique component but leaving it inside the loco where no-one can see it doesn't make a lot of sense.
     
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  20. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    You are right, unfortunately a lot of museums are now being run by people fresh out of University with all sorts of big ideas on presentation but no idea of the historical context of what they are exhibiting. This is how we end up with things like the awful museum in Glasgow where the historic Scottish locos are incarcerated. Whatever other qualifications they need, a railway museum needs to be run by people who have a knowledge and a passion for railways.
     
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