If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'll agree with you on that.
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  2. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    OK, this is the 'Steam Traction' area but if we are offering a Critique of Thompson/Vs Bulleid/Gresley et al. does anyone know anything much about his involvement with rolling Stock.
    I know of Bulleids Double deckers and Pub cars ( interesting if not entirely well received) but his everyday carriages were very influential in the design of the BR mK1.
    Never heard anything bad said about a Thompson Coach.
     
  3. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I believe the patent ran out in 1941.
     
    60525 and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  4. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    I suggest that when a new CME tries out new ideas, he owes a duty to achieve the best possible both in engineering terms and design, and for the shareholders and traffic department.

    The Thompson B1s were cheap and cheerful and did the job well, if rough riders for the footplate crew. Thompson also rebuilt lots of older locos and the jury is still out on some of these, as we have debated at considerable length.

    Bulleid did not rebuild any pre-existing SR and pre grouping locos. He used a Brighton Atlantic as a test bed for the sleeve valve. He fitted better cylinders to the Nelsons, and the LeMaitre draughting to same and some of the Schools. But basically he produced just 3 new loco classes for the SR, the Q1 using an existing poor design of chassis or more specifically valve gear, and the MNs, and the WC and BB pacifics. All the MNs were rebuilt in BR days and for the reasons you have to go back to the Rugby Test Report. However way you read the Rugby Test Report on the MNs it is a damning indictment of the original design. And yes I have a copy.

    Nothing so damning was publically sold as a Report on the Thompson locos and rebuilds!

    There is something on SteamIndex where Bulleid said to a meeting (when he became CME of the SR) something like no way should a loco like the Maunsell Q class have been produced of Victorian design in this year of grace (1938). I forget the exact words.

    Yet he then used exactly the same valve gear and cylinders and chassis for the Q1, after publically criticising it!

    (He also described eccentrics and their straps for valve gear as 'disc brakes'. Reducing the throw by using launch links in the correct application would have reduced this effect).

    He could easily have fitted launch links, reduced the throw of the eccentrics, and produced a very fine valve gear for his Q1. He did not do so. The additional cost would have been very very small if anything.

    I dont think any errors made by Thompson were as basic as this simple error on the part of Bulleid with the Q1 which also had braking difficulties on long heavy trains in wartime.

    I apologise if I have mentioned this before but something odd happened with the Maunsell Q design. Maunsell was ill at the time as was Clayton, and Holcroft was occupied elsewhere. I have researched quite a bit but never quite found out who designed the Maunsell Qs. I discounted one dodgy source.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Maybe it turned out to be better in service than he expected, and he didn't think he could get enough improvement to justify the effort at the time. It would surely have been weeks if not months of effort to design a better valve gear, and it might have been that he didn't have a lot of confidence that they could do better. I note, too, that Holcroft says the Qs were designed with 'standard' parts used on other classes, (does this explain the valve gear?) and it may well have been considered better too carry on using the same components where possible. Holcroft says W.G. Hooley was much involved with the Q class BTW. As he was Senior draughtsman it seems logical.
     
  6. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    Hi JimC,

    Thank you very much for your above post. Do you have a reference for the Holcroft quote please re W G Hooley? I have all of Holcroft's books but dont remember this reference - which would explain a lot if I can find it!

    There were also 'standard' parts for eccentrics with a lesser throw for launch type eccentrics!

    I have a feeling the Maunsell Qs used the E1 or L1 valve gear parts (loco links), but as these were inside admission, and the Qs (and Q1s) outside admission it was all 'wrong' on the Qs and Q1s!

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Locomotive Adventure Vol1 p183 (presumably 1st edition).
    "Hooley... had done all the preliminary scheming under Clayton's direction of the various classes outlines at Waterloo. His work under Maunsell had ended with the last design, the new 0-6-0 goods engine to be built later on... to be known as the Q class..."
    See also p179 - "hybrid, having parts in common with the Eastern L and N classes and some of Western pattern"

    Jim Champ
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  8. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    Hi JimC,

    Many thanks for the above but one of the problems is that Hooley died in Jan 1936! The Q class appeared in 1938!

    The plot thickens!

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not much. Holcroft mentions those dates and that there were delays, if not the reasons. Not least presumably losing the Chief draughtsman unexpectedly was a factor. Even if Hooley had made all the major decisions by the time some one was appointed and picked up the pieces time would be lost.

    Probably be instructive to visit NRM and inspect drawings register if it exists. Nrm on line list of drawings suggests much detail work on the Q class done summer 1936. The initial GA must have been done before that at a guess.

    Jim Champ
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  10. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    11,665
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I don't think there's much Thompson stock left is there? Is this due to most of it being built during the war/post war period with decent materials in short supply?
     
  11. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    Chalk and cheese in terms of local operating conditions (even in wartime), and once again easy to say after the event. I haven't heard of any rioting within the Southern Railway's Board minutes regarding Bulleid's design issues. Quite the contrary- I think they were rather pleased, so from their point of view, he did the business. You could argue that he misled them, but there was still plenty of opportunity to call time.

    The traffic department seemed quite happy with the MNs once the weight was reduced in the production batch as they had a locomotive that could both perform on long distance runs and consistently interweave with the suburban electric timetable.

    In engineering terms, once again, if you just look at design attributes and subsequent maintenance issues, you are bound to find fault, some of which were unavoidable at the time. However, as much as we feel sorry for the fitter in the sump, it was what they were paid to do. Seen from the passenger and traffic side, they were at least good enough to replace the N15s on top duties.
     
  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I wish I could find the source but I remember reading a piece where someone high up on the SR board said something along the lines of "Bulleid may have cost us a lot of money but we certainly got our money's worth."
     
  13. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Van driver
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If you are talking about coaches, both Thompsons and Bulleids were pretty good. The last pre nationalisation coaches in passenger service were some Thompson designed buffet cars, which ran until 1978. Bulleids loco hauled coaches disappeared earlier, mainly because electrification on the Southern meant less need for hauled stock, but his EMUs were excellent. The last of the pre nationalisation 4SUBs went in 1983, but the 4EPBs, built by BR to his design, lasted until 1995
     
  14. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    11,665
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I thought it was the Gresleys that lasted until 1978?
     
  15. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    I think that was John Elliot, but it's been a while since I have read the quote.
     
  16. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    Thompson buffets were still in departmental use around the same time, which was how Llangollen got theirs.
     
  17. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    11,665
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The 'control' trains were still parked up in various parts of the country then too weren't they?
     
  18. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Van driver
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The last Gresleys were withdrawn in '77, the Thompsons lasted another year, both in blue/grey. Looked oddly OK in it, I thought
     
  19. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    11,665
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Have a look at the last vehicle in 'the midland jubilee' photo by Hugh Ballatyne October 1st 1977.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    884
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thompson stock was unlucky, mostly withdrawn before people were in a position to buy out of passenger service and most departmental conversions were for electrification work, as they were still in use at the time the control trains were formed. If these flat roofed examples had lasted a few more years then some more might have survived.

    A couple got fired at Snailwell with no option given to save them at all.

    Sawdust.
     

Share This Page