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CME 15/07/17

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by pete12000, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    An unfortunate incident but what else were they to do? No standing allowed on rail tours these days so if every other coach was full, no room for the unfortunate souls at Preston.
     
  2. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Well-Known Member

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    Yes I'm getting the same, I think it must be bad coal. :)
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Did it stop before the summit, or after? What you say makes sense if it was before, but some of the commentary on here implies that actually it was over the summit by time it stopped - which makes less sense if water is low. Where exactly is the change in gradient?

    Tom
     
  4. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    Which was prudent working and sensible. Your loco is having a problem but is still, albeit slowly, moving the train forward so knowing you are going to have to stop at some point very soon to get the issue fixed before it goes critical you get enough of the load safely over the hump so that when you've fixed the steaming issue you can restart the load. This was clearly not a stall, despite the slow speed over the crest, but a sensible stop due to an engine needing attention. Visual evidence suggests that was due to poor coal/fire bed conditions and consequential low water levels as they hadn't dared put the injector on coming up the bank to put cold water into the boiler and drop the pressure they did have.
     
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  5. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    Even 6201 had problems on Langho bank back in 2012 with 11 on . Gordon Hodgson at the helm finally managed to restart the train on the steep climb so I suppose even a Pacific can come to grief on the climb . Granted the conditions were a lot different .

     
  6. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thank you @1020 Shireman for that model review.

    One thing it just goes to show is how busy the network is at particular times in not particularly likely places. But for Castle Cement would we even have a line between Daisyfield and Hellifield? With both the 1745 and the 1803 from Clitheroe to Manchester to cater for, including the moves up to Horrocksford to cross over, the line is effectively committed from about 1740 to about 1820. So the time window for the CME leaving Hellifield scheduled 1704 is probably only about 10 mins lateness, 15 at the outside. Later than that and you are probably better off waiting at Hellifield till 1800. It seems as though if you miss your slot for the WCML at Farington you wait anyway. Avoid getting stopped at Whalley at all costs--the example with the Brit suggests that too.
     
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  7. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    Surely the opposite is correct. Going uphill a low water level would be tilted back over the firebox raising it in the critical area; when the boiler then gets over the summit and onto the flat, or even worse a downhill, it negates or even reverses that effect. The YouTube film I shared suggests a scenario of getting the train over the hump enough to be safely restarted without calling in an assisting diesel, the crew putting the injectors on to restore water levels for safety, then addressing the fire problem. In the scenario of poor steaming and low water making sure you've covered the boiler safety issue is more pressing than a bit of time delay from a stop. Having to throw out the fire, if it got that critical for water, would have lead to even bigger problems and delays than the stop.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's my point. If you have low water, stop before the summit so that the firebox remains covered and sort out the problem. As soon as you go over the summit and start on the way down, the water moves to front of the boiler, lowering the level over the firebox and exacerbating the problem.

    Hence my question about where is the summit in relation to where the loco stopped - some of the commentary suggests it didn't stop until after the summit, which doesn't make sense if the crew knew the water was critically low: you would stop before the summit.

    Tom
     
  9. johnnew

    johnnew Member

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    Whether completely over the top I couldn't say but definitely over a conserable hump onto a less steep or flat part, that is visible in the video. The key question is only answerable by the crew as to how close to critical it was, i.e. must stop now as opposed to ok for another five minutes so let's stop here and safely sort it out.

    A bit like juggling fuel on the motorway, have I got to stop now and do a splash and dash even if it means paying the premium prices or can I risk making the first filling station off the Mway.
     
  10. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    If the reason for stopping was to get the water to a safe level I concur.
    We do not know why the train stopped. What can be confidently assumed is the heavier the train the more water and coal needed to produce the steam demanded. That is irrespective of how free steaming a Jub boiler might be.
     
  11. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Very true Stephen, perhaps highlighting what a big ask 12 is for a 5X?
     
  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Listen to the on board announcement. It was explaining to passengers that leaves on the line were the problem. Poor railhead conditions can defeat any loco irrespective of load. The 45690 scenario was somewhat different.
     
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  13. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    Like I said different conditions but 45690 still it managed to get up ( just ) even on a tough gradient with or without said bad coal;)
     
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    I cannot let you drag that up yet again and not ask again, what viable alternatives were there, I don't remember you having an answer before so I don't really expect one this time either.
    Not sure what the significance is of your statement, 'searching a coach en route'. Enlighten us please on this point.

    PS sorry to everyone who got sick to the back teeth with this before but since Mr Dobbs has brought it up again I cannot let him to slag off RTC and WC for no good reason.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  15. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    So 12 from standing up 1/82 is not a big ask for a long legged 5?
     
  16. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    As one of those, along with Mr Wistle, left on Preston station last April, I can assure Mr Dobbs that RTC were not 'quite happy'. They were extremely apologetic. But in any case that's a different situation in which a coach is actually failed in the early morning and it is impractical within the schedule to shunt another one on at Carnforth. I can just imagine some of the posts on here if the letter for last week's run said ' Unfortunately although we have 12 coaches available, for operational reasons we can only take 11 and we are knocking off the bookings on a last in first out basis for our steerage passengers'. I don't think that's on.

    Remember that for months this job was down to 70013/46233 on UK Steam. Then presumably at the stage when the Duchess needed the work doing, it was transferred to 46115. Selling tickets on a planned load of 12 was quite reasonable. Then for whatever reason SG was unavailable. Then the weather was about as bad as it could be for the time of year. So what were the options?

    Strategic
    1. Do what they did.
    2. Put a diesel on the back.
    3. Get Galatea back from York and double head --- as Andrew N says, not something normally contemplated, not cheap and at least four steam crew shifts to find. Probably desirable but not viable.

    Tactical

    1. If the coal at Carlisle was known to be a bit iffy, get some Carnforth coal up there one way or another.
    2. If you're 20 down at Hellifield, don't leave Hellifield ( or possibly Horrocksford) until you can reckon on the train in front having cleared Daisyfield by the time you get to Whalley. Reduce the risk of a red signal to the irreducible minimum.

    Let's face it, they were between a rock and a hard place. They might have chosen option 2 as Shireman was clearly fearing given his wretched luck. But they went for option 1 and as @Big Al pointed out they ended up 20 mins late at Euston. The decision was looking a good one in Carlisle at 1300, the afternoon didn't go too well but the job got done. Have a look at Six Bells Jct for many steam excursions through the ages which have gone massively worse than that. But standards and expectations and intensity of use of the network have all changed and if we are going to plan on running 12 coach trains, which makes a hell of a lot of sense in revenue terms, surely we need 7P/8P power available to do it with.
     
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  17. Linesider

    Linesider Well-Known Member

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    Another video from Saturday with shots from Shap Summit, Howe & Co. and Ais Gill Viaduct.

     
  18. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Very good synopsis.
    It is assumed 46233 was the intended traction, 70013 being not yet recertified. It is not known publicly how much notice of the unavailability was given.
    If it was my call, indeed my engine, 45690 would only have been rostered for load 12 with an assisting loco. My reasonining being, as @BigAl, everything needed to be favourable for a successful job because the loco it at its limit therefore no margin.
    I appreciate a diesel would have disappointed many passengers but with respect that is a different issue to deal with.
    My opinion, no disrespect intended.
     
  19. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    If you look at the video you can see the change in gradient, it was definitely over thee summit. If the reason for the stop was bring the boiler round or clean the fire and not critical water level then it's better to restart on a downgrade rather than get the heavy train rolling still going uphill.
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agreed, which is why I am somewhat sceptical about low water being the reason for stopping there.

    Tom
     

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