Cathedrals Express to Alton, 2/12/17

A brilliant day out Sir with 45407. It was a case of Riley International Rescue saving the day as 31625, 35005 and 73096 were all unavailable at the time. It was so good that someone even did a documentary about it:


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Some stills from the chord between the Addlestone and Byfleet Junctions

 

So if I understand you correctly Dobbs 0054 you saying that Steam Dreams (who I have no love for) should pick up some financial tab because VTWC Class 390, 390152, pulled down 500 metres of overhead line last night on the WCML at Wembley. How does that become their fault?

 

Couple of snaps this afternoon. 45212 +B4 passing Bentley, 925+B4 passing Ropley and a ropey image of 45212 on Ropley shed. Despite the early tribulations, hope the passengers had a good day?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jumbojet1/38758792822/in/datetaken/lightbox/

 

with so many MK2,s Was this the former green train coming home?

 

On reflection, whilst by no means the best I've been on, the trip was remarkable for running the full advertised route despite the delay; indeed, it suggests that whilst one can simply draw a line from Essex to deepest Surrey and Hampshire on a railway map with ease, the physical nature of the route makes it much harder to operate. It requires things going right from bottom to top, the failure of which results in delay.

The Spoon issue was more irksome than the delay, and in the absence of anything to the contrary, in terms of operation one can speculate that it was down to one of two things: faulty ETH requiring the use of steam heat on the ECS so the diners could dine in comfort, or no time to shunt about the night before at Southall or indeed at Shoeburyness. That said, despite the 'show pony' connotations, 45212 could still be heard doing something at the front, so it is definitely a red pen move on the steam map of Britain.

The heating really was a problem on this trip, but I cannot comment on whether it was addressed for the return, as I intended to bail out at Alresford and make my own way back north anyway (as it happens, in terms of length of time on the move, it was not the best idea I have ever had, but at least it meant I got home to have a full day off everything today).

Suffice to say, I put it in the 'glad the fairly rare track is done and I don't have to go through it again' pile.

 

Good to know that for you it wasnt a total write-off, but from the point of view of Mr and Mrs average passenger, a train which you have had to hang around for 2 hours in freezing cold weather for, had dodgy heating when you did get on, delivered you to your destination a few minutes before nightfall and too late to enjoy the whole raison d'etre of the trip (the carol service) for many, has to be a reputational disaster for SD? For anything other than a railtour, substantial refunds would be sought and given for this kind of of debacle.

 

I didn't make it out to the mainline part of this charter, but I did get to Ropley in time for the evening departure

45212 on shed at Ropley

British Railways Black 5 - 45212 by Tim White, on Flickr

45212 on shed at Ropley facing 73096

British Railways Standard 5 - 73096 and Black 5 - 45212 by Tim White, on Flickr

The evening departure behind 47 580

BR Class 47 Class 47 - 47 580 by Tim White, on Flickr


BR Class 47 Class 47 - 47 580 by Tim White, on Flickr

The support coach remained with the Black 5, presumably that avoided the heating issue on the return run?

 

I know, but like in anything in this game, it depends on who you ask. Ask a track-basher with a penchant for going around the country with a steam locomotive on the front, I will naturally put up with a little bit more than the regular family of four with two energetic kids or elderly parents.

SD, which I have used twice before, cannot really be blamed for the delay any more than VTWC; it was probably an 'act of God' unless the infrastructure was demonstrably defective, in which case the pigeon passes to NR. Where they perhaps have a duty of care is the heating, but after reporting to the operator, there's not a lot they can do themselves. Also, they might wish to mitigate future risk by either starting from London, or starting in the provinces from an accessible depot and not attempt to hedge bets by attempting to pass through (thus, ironically, increasing complexity).

Naturally, refunds were given for the extras, but if you separate the journey from these, heating and matters beyond direct control, it essentially did what was described. Consequently, it is up to the passenger, if they feel so inclined, to press for any recompense.

PS. The wires issue is on the news, and apparently 500m was affected.

 

That isn't how it works in the Rail Industry - TOCs (and I presume FOCs) both pay and receive compensation when each other, or Network Rail, 'cause' delays - there a vast industry (and a frightening number of desks and personnel in Control centres) attributing delays, challenging delay attribution, checking invoices etc. Hence, a TOC or FOC would receive money through this system that is intended to both penalize those 'responsible' for delays and help fund additional costs incurred/compensation paid for those affected.

As Charter operates have a 'cap' on how much they pay as a result of delays they cause (with Network Rail picking up the balance of the compensation to others), I suspect that they also don't receive full compensation when (almost certainly more frequently) they are on the receiving end of delays caused by others, and hence 'delay/repay' is not able to operate as it would on scheduled services.

Steven

 

45212 recovers from a slip as it tackles the gradient up to the SW mainline at Byfleet Junction. There didn't appear to be any diesel assistance here. Note in the second picture after a further slip the sanders are on.

 

Bean counter I understand the rail industry "pass the parcel for the delay" and hence pot of money, but the issue of compensation gets more clouded here. WCRC may be the TOC as far as Network Rail are concerned, but it is not as though it was one of their own tours. All they are doing is hiring a set of stock, footplate crews and guards for £X thousand pounds. It could be argued that any pay-out could be passed on by WCRC, but as you say it is capped for charters anyway. I guess it would then depend on the hire contract as to whether that got passed on to Steam Dreams. I am very much with Bullied Pacific on this it should be Force Majeure. VTWC would certainly not have wanted their Friday evening operation in tatters as was caused by this incident, and unless it can be proved that NR had not maintained the infrastructure properly then it is an accident. Trouble of course in this 21st century world of ambulance chasing lawyers and intercompany pots of delay cash being balanced somewhere, and accident seems to be something that is no longer in the vocabulary, someone always has to be to blame.
Remember no passenger had a contract (i.e. ticket) with WCRC (or DBC if it was a tour they had operated) only with the promoter, in this case Steam Dreams.
No the whole question of what a tour company may choose to do is a totally different debate.

 

This looks like the revised turning move for 45212 that could not be done yesterday due to the late running http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O48941/2017/12/04/advanced

 

Clearly operational matters are largely outside the control of SD in this case yet it surely has responsibility for the consequences to any customers that can demonstrate they have received a service falling below reasonable expectations. Is it unreasonable to expect tour operators perhaps take insurance out as a prudent contingency for liabilities arising from events outside their control? What happens in other types of similar leisure services?
Or perhaps customers run the unwitting risk that if it goes badly awry they simply have to accept the outcome?

 

If past experience with Steam Dreams (and most other tour promoters) is anything to go by, I would expect them to write to the passengers in the next few days explaining the problems and probably offering some sort of compensation, usually in the form of a discount on a future tour.

 

They start from Southend because there is a large demand, Marcus has been quoted a number of times saying it is one of the most popular pick-ups areas outside London ( the other being Horsham and Dorking). I suspect a lot of the passenger are not prepared to travel into central London. They ran a trip to York from Southend due to demand, 13 coaches which was sold out, only a third of the trip ended up being steam hauled due to the complexity, while UKTR ran a 9 coach train from Kingscross to York hauled by Braunton the same day.

 

We could always go round *that* Tango & Charlies debate again, but it would be pointless as it's already had one airing this year. Maybe in January?

Maybe the spirit of the Railway & Canal Traffic Act (1854) is what is needed to ensure that the 'reasonableness' of risk charging is covered in the pricing structure via an opt-in. If you want the company to take on the risk on your behalf, then you should pay more for that service. If you are happy to go with the flow and waive company responsibility, then you have a discounted fare that reflects this. I can't see this happening, as it would require Tango & Charlies to explain what's going on. And we don't seem to like those...

 

I have no problem with things starting in Southend, but regardless of popularity, without regular access to a local depot a la Bristol, Crewe and York, then he will always run the risk of something going wrong somewhere between Southall and Barking. This principle of risk also applies to any itinerary that has London as it's half-way point, and involves cutting across major junctions.