GWSR Broadway Developments

Ah, like the track renewal that has happened every year since I've been a member, or the return to steam of 4 steam locos in the last few years?

Toddington signal box and its condition is not a symptom of anything other than it's low down the priority list compared to a myriad of other things, not just the extension.

 

There is definitely a room available at Toddington for training purposes - during the close season there is also the coffeepot at Winchcombe, C+W messroom has been used on occasion and I believe the new elf centre at Winchcombe will be available for training as well when complete.

 

This wasn't about perceived neglect of the rest of the line at the expense of Broadway which generally speaking is not the case (although Toddington box condition has been raised for a few years now, so is a sore point. I believe there is now a commitment to do something about it next year). It was about the unjustified criticism of the signalmen's dept up thread and a dose of reality about the future difficulties of running a 15 mile long railway and an intensive manual signalling system in the 21st century. Please remember some volunteers are taking on a lot of responsibility and fewer and fewer people are willing to do this, understandably. If a signalman messes up, it's not only him or her that may end up being interviewed by the RAIB/ORR/Police and potentially in court, the person who assessed them may be there also.

 

Existing ones are not really suitable for a number of reasons although the new Winchcombe facility will be useful. Needs kitting out and be able to leave equipment in there for one. The SVR's signalling training facility is the ideal.

 

You have overlooked that I said "other places". Unintentionally I trust.
PH

 

How long does it take to train a signal man........When I applied their were about 12 people in the class
After 12 weeks in the classroom and 3 more months in Toddington box only 3 of us passed out.one left after a month.(too stressfull ) the second person left to go to the SVR to train and was never seen again, and I lasted for another 18 months, till certain things occurred outside of the rules which forced me to leave.Its a wonderful job to do and is one of the most important jobs on a living railway.
But unfortunately there comes a time when railways get longer and busier you have to pay people to do a certain job.Volunteers are just that
and they all give up their spare time to something they believe in.Broadway is a brilliant example and would not be happening if it was not for this unpaid work.I dread to think the cost of a contractor over all these years..Oh and Cheltenham platform.

 

If 12 people were trained for 12 weeks in the classroom plus 3 months practical, but only 3 passed out, I'd be looking at the competence of those doing the training.

 

A very high "chop rate" then, almost as bad as military aircrew training!

Meanwhile, back at the coal face, progress on Broadway Station building continues despite the cold, damp weather yesterday. Excellent stuff folks.
http://broadwaystationgroup.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Also it depends a lot on the commitment of those studying. As a former First Aid trainer, I would see a lot of initial enthusiasm and interest, followed by a gradual tailing off as time went on, until First Aid courses were 'payment up front'.
Likewise on preserved railways, there can be seen similar traits: How many sites have a locomotive in pieces, stripped to piles of decaying rust as the initial interest wanes as reality dawns as to the true cost of restoration? Or lines of wooden coaches and wagons going back to nature? Sometimes it is the need of railways to operate, dragging restoration people out of their warm(?) sheds onto bleak windswept hillsides to repair track or operate level crossings. Many was the time I was called from restoring my carriages to drive trains because the rostered driver had not turned up. Then the host railway complains that your coaches are unsightly as you haven't restored them....
There are many railways that suffer from these problems, and it will not be easily resolved. Paid staff, full or part time, is one way. However if the local volunteers are not encouraged to 'apply' for such paid posts before outsiders are brought in by management to fill these vital gaps in the operational side of the railways, then these volunteers will start to drift away, disillusioned by the apparent lack of support from management.

On another thread, we see these comments:
↑
'A read through their accounts shows that (some of) those folks were paid handsome salaries thanks to the generosity of aviation enthusiasts and ordinary folks who's well-intentioned donations were made to help the Vulcan to fly - not line the pockets of a small group of people.'

'It's time the Charities Commission took a long hard look at some "charities" which are, to all intents and purposes, a commercial business rather than a charity.
It's the same story as we've had with railway preservation in some areas, dedicated enthusiasts give the time and money then the men in suits take over and it becomes something else'

Definitely food for thought.

 

Sorry but that is unduly harsh. We are not talking about paid trainers training employees we are talking about volunteers. Folk will sign up for courses like this & some will then find it too onerous, or will find they don't actually have the time, or decide they don't want the responsibility & others will drop out for a variety of reasons. If there is an issue perhaps it is with the initial screening of applications in the first place to make sure the volunteer trainers time is used to best effect.

 

I'd also be interested to know how long ago this was, certainly the TTI training has changed massively in the last 2 years or so, no idea about the signalling but I imagine it has changed to some degree.

 

Out of interest, could you volunteer for the GWSR signalling course "straight off the street" so to speak, or would participants have had to volunteer elsewhere first? Thinking about my own railway, I believe that trainee signalmen have either to start as platform staff and get to a certain level there first before being accepted on to the signalling course; or else transfer from another grade (Guard, Loco Crew) that is safety critical and requires a rules assessment. I suspect that has a certain self-selecting effect on who signs up, in that you would have a much better idea before starting of what the job actually entailed.

Tom

 

Yes, potential signalmen are required to volunteer for 6 months elsewhere on the railway beforehand. I don't think a specific role is required, but anything in S+T, station staff, loco or TTI will probably do the trick - the main gist as you say is so that you get a better idea of what's required by being around the railway. I know a few folk who have signed up to be signalmen, done their 6 months and decided to stick at that as signalling seems not for them after all.

 

Well if 75% of the trainees were not up to it (for whatever reason) - why did the trainers waste everyone's time for 12 weeks + 3 months?

I say again that I'd be looking at both the competence of the trainers and at those who signed up the trainees in the first place when faced with these results.

 

For those who like to follow the GWSR blogs, the links page has been handsomely updated.

http://www.gwsr.com/news/news_and_blogs/blogs_and_photo_diaries.html

Now it is possible to scroll down and see not only a proper date, but also a thumbnail for recent entries of each blog.

Wouldn't it be great if other preserved railways did something similar.

 

Well if you can say what you'll be doing and how your life is working out in 6 months time then you'd better start doing the lottery. No-one can tell what's around the corner and I'm quite sure that the trainees started off with the intention of completing the course and working the signal boxes on the GWSR, however, illness, work, transport, family matters etc. can all change overnight.


Keith

 

It was even worse in Fighter Control, now given the 'punchy' title of Battlespace Manager!
Hope they can find a way around the training issue.

Besides, as the station at Broadway will still be a way off 'completion' on opening day, I guess the powers that be have it planned out and when required, it will all fall into place.

Garry

 

I think it's a fairly well established statistic that the fall out rate for new volunteers on heritage railways is about five out of six, for any number of reasons. If three out of twelve are still around after twelve months, it's above average.

 

A bit of thread drift here but just to give some actual facts about signalling to hopefully close it off:
To repeat - S&T work will not be completed in time for Broadway box to be in use for the line opening so a GF it will be. That is not a problem as a box is not required there operationally. It actually helps because it means the box can be more usefully utilised as a training facility to get somewhere towards the extra numbers of signalmen required to operate the whole railway in future years. Toddington, Winchcombe and Cheltenham are all required open to operate a 2 train service because of the way the signalling at Cheltenham is configured. The 2 train service will cross at Winchcombe, the 3 train service will cross at Toddington and Gotherington meaning 4 boxes will be required open (plus Broadway). Broadway is the only one we can do without. It is not really about learning to work the simple layout of Broadway either - the signalman needs to be fully competent in dealing with emergencies, equipment and train failure and out of course events. Knowledge of a new set of signalling regulations and method of working will be required as electric token working will not be used, Toddington-Broadway being track circuit block with acceptance levers. I can see that bridge strikes will become a fairly regular event to deal with too.....

With regard to training (and ignoring the thoughtless comment about quality of training), signalling training is now vastly different to what it was way back when and the '12 joined and 3 passed out' quoted. To a much higher standard. It has to be. In 2013 the ORR made it blatantly clear to heritage railways that they were in the last chance saloon - up your game on standards and follow ROGS or you will be shut down. Fortunately the GWR was doing a lot of work on signalling competence and training. It was recognised that the signalman is the only safety critical role that has no 'apprentice' role in the same dept. Think Cleaner to Fireman to Driver; TTI to Guard; PW worker to Chargehand/Trackwalker; C&W worker to C&W Examiner; That provides two things - the person gains essential background knowledge, skills and confidence about the railway and the job, and it allows their supervisor to judge if they have the aptitude, desire and ability to take on a future safety critical role. That's why a signalling trainee cannot now join straight off the street - there is real benefit in learning about how the railway operates first and its organisation, safety, communications etc and both sides evaluating if they are suitable and have the commitment. More selection up front also means a higher success rate on the people you train and less wasted effort. In 2016 out of the max of 4 people selected for the course 3 passed out so you can see the benefit. (1 retired due to a medical problem). The posts about failure rate for people joining straight off without any sort of pre-selection are pretty much right - its about 80-20 across all railways. Some fail the medical and fitness requirement. A lot of this relies on two dedicated people to run and manage as with a few things on our railway - you may want to reflect on what happens when these people have had enough of the ever increasing workload and responsibility. It is a ROGS requirement that whoever is providing training for a safety critical role must themselves be assessed as competent to do so.

 

You mean that you don't have 'box boys on the GWR?