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84001 - next to be de-accessioned?

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by Tim Light, Nov 11, 2016.

  1. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Railway Magazine reports that 84001 (formerly E3036) has been moved from Barrow Hill to the Museum of Scottish Railways at Boness.

    Intriguingly it says "It is on loan from the National Railway Museum for an initial 3-year period, but ownership of the Scottish-built loco may be transferred to the Scottish Railway Museum Trust during that time.". It sounds like the NRM are intending to de-accession this loco, as they did with the NSR 0-6-2T and a number of other items.

    Can anyone shed any light on this?
     
  2. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    making room for a 92 possibly.
     
  3. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    Intresting, should this happen then the NRM wouldn't have an example of the first generation of AC electrics, which is what I thought it was supposed to represent? Also wasn't it still owned by BR until Privitisation?
     
  4. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Guest

    This locomotive has accession number 1979-7001 which indicates it was taken into the collection and ownership transferred in 1979 long before privatisation. The myth is understandable though in that the book 'The National Railway Collection' published in 1988 states, presumably wrongly, on page 81 "a Class 84 from the 'first-generation ' 25kV 'build' is on loan ". More significantly it goes on to say "until a more characteristic type is withdrawn". Subsequent to that 87001 was accessioned into the collection in 2005.

    This suggests the original intention was to de-accession 84001 in 2005 and this may now come about as a result of the current review. However, by 2005 it was on loan to the AC Locomotive Group who I understand were picking up the tab for it being at Barrow Hill Roundhouse. Thus no immediate need to go through the de-accessioning process then. Subsequently, it is my understanding the loan to the AC Locomotive Group came to an end. It thus became one of the National Collection locomotives loaned to Barrow Hill Roundhouse pending developments. The move to Scotland has been on the cards for several years but various hurdles needed to be overcome.

    Had the people of Scotland voted to leave the United Kingdom it is almost certain that the consequent splitting of the National Collections would have seen this locomotive passing to Scotland. It was built in Glasgow and is the only surviving representative of a North British mainline post steam locomotive built for use in Great Britain.

    It would be very interesting to know if the statement "but ownership of the Scottish-built loco may be transferred to the Scottish Railway Museum Trust during that time" was actually made by the trust with the approval of the NRM. I have not seen a formal statement to that effect. I have though seen photographers magazines submissions stating that. Presumably RM checked with the trust and the NRM before running the story and they confirmed the statement to be correct.

    Currently two other items of rolling stock from the National Collection are at Bo'ness and it is my understanding that due to their Scottish connection are also being considered for transfer to the trust.
     
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  5. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    This is interesting, Peter. What are the other two items at Boness?

    I like the idea of Scotland having its own equivalent of the NRM (regardless of devolution). Is this the case at Boness? Does the Museum of Scottish Railways have any public funding and backing? I understood that the SRPS was an entirely enthusiast-run and voluntary organisation. This is fine, and what they have achieved with limited resources is terrific. I would just like to be reassured that there is a public stake in the collection to guarantee its future whatever happens to the SRPS. Not wishing to be pessimistic, but we are all getting older ....
     
  6. 34098

    34098 Member Account Suspended

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    Nothing to do with less money for anything unless its the money pit is it ?
     
  7. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I suppose this is evidence that the NRM looks at things differently to the average enthusiast. My initial thought was that if it were to be given to anyone then the AC loco group would be the obvious recipient.
    Obviously it being Scottish built/last NBL loco carries more weight with the NRM than it does with me (and I suspect most others).
    I'm not saying they are wrong, I just doubt many people would favour where it was built over where it operated. On that basis there are quite a few locos eligible for preservation in Scotland, several Panniers for instance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016
  8. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Well-Known Member

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    Are the AC Loco Group a registered charity with their own site - could not see any mention of the all important mention of that on its website so I guess not? It's good to see that when the NRM are passing things on they go to such registered charities as the SRPS a win, win to my eyes (I know Tim is on a mission to prevent such things, but I don't agree with him).
     
  9. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I've no idea. Just an initial thought.

    I wonder which bit is more important "Scottish" or "Railways" or indeed "Museum". Will any English built items now be expelled (if there are any)?
     
  10. steam_mad

    steam_mad Member

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    To clarify - the SRPS established the Scottish Railway Museum Trust (SRMT) in 1992. The SRPS then transferred the majority of their collection of historic artefacts to this new body, such as Maude and 419. Certain pieces of rolling stock, such as duplicate pieces (e.g. austerities and mark ones) remain in the ownership of the SRPS so could be disposed of if the society wanted to with a vote of the board of directors.

    Items in the SRMT are therefore separate from the societies other actives, so in the unfortunate event that the SRPS entered into financial difficulties there is no way in which collection items from the SRMT could be 'sold off' to pay bills etc. The SRMT have their own 'board' so to say which reports back to the board of directors for the SRPS with recommendations for de-accesionising and placing items into the trust. For example, it is probable that the 8f will be moved into the ownership of the SRMT once it has been paid off.

    I also believe that it is the SRMT collection which holds the accredited museum status rather than the society but happy to be corrected on this.
     
  11. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Fergus ... I'm not on any such mission. Please don't tell people that I am.

    My concern is that unique and irreplaceable items are not disposed of in a way that puts their future at risk. Hence my questions about the relationship between the SRPS and the Museum of Scottish Railways. From the answer given by Steam_mad above, I'm happy that a financial crisis at the SRPS couldn't put the Museum collection at risk. That's good.

    I'll look forward to seeing the loco at Boness, preferably restored to its original electric blue.
     
  12. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Thanks for this, steam_mad. Sounds like an excellent arrangement.
     
  13. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Guest

    The two items at Bo'ness are the Caledonian Railway Crocodile Wagon http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=8793 (1995-7002) and The Duke of Sutherlands Saloon 57A http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=564 (1975-7031) both if which are currently on loan to the Scottish Railway Museum Trust to whom ownership will presumably transfer.

    steam_mad has explained the Scottish Railway Museum Trust. There are though a number of items of railway rolling stock in the much wider ranging Scottish Museum collection which presumably comes under the jurisdiction of the Holyrood parliament. This includes several of the railway exhibits at Glasgow Riverside Museum. I am not personally well versed in arrangements in Scotland but I am sure someone who is can expand on this. It may be that some items at Bo'ness actually belong to the latter collection.

    A problem for any collection of historical artefacts is the funding of its continued well being. The space it takes up has a cost which has to be financed. No doubt the AC Locomotive Group would have liked to continue being the custodians of 84001 however it may well be that the reason their custodianship arrangement came to an end was the financial burden was too great. I think I am correct in saying they now have eight locomotives and although some earn income the majority don't and the bills have to be paid.
     
  14. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Thanks Peter. These are two interesting and precious items. Quite appropriate that they should be displayed in Scotland, given their heritage.

    It does sound as though the NRM intends to focus on England and Wales, as Northern Ireland has its own collections.

    It will be interesting to see which other items, if any, are deemed to be more appropriate for a Scottish collection, and what the criteria will be. Based on where they were built, anything of NBL origin or its constituent companies could be a candidate. Based on where things predominantly operated, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that all Scottish pre-grouping main line locos are already based in Scotland. There are no surviving LMS , LNER or BR types that had a particular affinity to Scotland. And the SRPS already has a good cross-section of Barclay locomotives. So I can't see much else going North, except perhaps Sir Lamiel, the NER long boiler 0-6-0, the J52, the Zambesi Sawmills 4-8-0 and the Barclay Fireless loco. They might stake a claim for a part share in some ECJS carriages, or anything else (like Duchess of Hamilton) that spent a percentage of its life north of the border. But none of the above makes a lot of sense.

    Based on a criteria of where built and where operated, will the NRM be finding a suitable museum in Japan for the bullet train? STOP! DON'T SHOOT. I'm only kidding!
     
  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The D49? Already owned by National Museum of Scotland though. How about the A4s too? Associated very much with Scotland in their final years and Haymarket was the home for several during their LNER and BR heydays.
     
  16. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    No9 and 61994 could be intresting both Doncaster built but spent fair old bit of time north of the border
     
  17. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    61994 would fit well with a Scottish collection, but it's privately owned so unlikely to be moving.

    60009 - isn't it already based in Scotland?
     
  18. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    T
    John Cameron owns both of them, although were both based in Shropshire for a while under his ownership. Edit sorry No9 was overhauled twice at Bridgnorth under Mr Cameron, 61994/ 3442 was based at the SVR under The Earl of Lindsey's ownership
     
  19. DisusedBranch

    DisusedBranch Active Member

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    I sympathise with your expression up to a point, 34098, but be realistic. How many people would have flocked to the lineside to see 84001, the D class, 26020, 31018, Gladstone et al returning to the mainline and any subsequent jaunts, compared to how many did and are flocking to see Flying Scotsman?

    Like it or not, FS captures the imagination of Joe Public like no other locomotive in the country, probably like no other locomotive on the entire planet. It makes a huge contribution to the way that a publicly-funded museum engages with the... public... and, in working order, is a brilliant mobile billboard for the NRM. Chucking that amount of money at it may not be to the taste of many railway enthusiasts, but if you consider the way FS fulfils the NRM brief of engaging the public, behind closed doors I suspect the museum's management quietly considers the vast sum spent on it quite well spent.
     
  20. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    I don't remember reading anywhere that the NRM's mission was to "engage the public". Their mission statement is accessible on line, but the key statement is "Our mission is to enable people to explore the story of railways and how they fit into that story.".

    Clearly it's important to engage the public so that they know there's a story to be explored, but I'm not convinced that the public are being enlighted about railways in general by the operation of Flying Scotsman. The general public are simply indulging their appetite for glamour, celebrity and eventism. Personally I'm delighted that 60103 has been so beautifully restored and is giving pleasure to so many people, but we shouldn't illude ourselves that it is single-handedly telling the story of railways.
     
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