6024 Cathedrals Express to Bristol, 12th Feb

Perhaps they need to look at running something akin to the open-siders used on the WHR and just cram the balaclava brigade in there at a premium rate

 

Norfolk Southern and Union Pacific do and did have a power car at the front of the train to conduct the heating and air conditioning here in the States. Could having a power generator car be something that could benefit the steam programs?

 

Have you experienced any of the recent winter railtours which people have been commented on?

Even if you consider the time taken for steam-heating to work its way through the train and a few door windows being open for the door-hangers, this doesn't explain why the carriages are still very cold (and getting colder) after an hour or so. Putting your hand on a heater (as I did) suggests that the heating simply isn't working on some of these carriages. Or it's roasting your posterior through the seat cushion if there's a sparky thing on the front.

Some might put up with a chilly carriage for a short journey, but I'm not sure how many of the fare-paying passengers would choose it again if they were going to be cooped up inside for over 12 hours.

I've passed on my comments to RTC via their website - it will be interesting to see if they reply.

Richard

 

Surely with the internal doors on the Carriages at the ends of the Saloon (for want of a better word) shut, then loss of heat via open droplights in the vestibules should be minimal ?.

 

Why is it that the people who work for the TOC have to come on here and state what a jem they are and that you will never appreciate what you have got until its gone?
Theres got to be something wrong somewhere.You don't get the other lot doing it.

 

This first hand account from another tour may be pertinent to the debate on here regarding customer comfort ......

A colleague of my wife's and her hubby went on the 12th Feb CME, so here's an unsolicited review of the trip from a couple of "newbie normals" who have never travelled behind mainline steam before. They travelled in posh dining from Nuneaton.

In a nut-shell they were extremely disappointed, due to the following problems :

"The carriage was far too cold, to the extent that we spent the stop-over in Carlisle buying more clothes, including extra vests, woolly tights and a travel rug. No extra hot drinks were available, only those already scheduled.

The food was very ordinary and not value for money we felt. Toast was cold.

We were particularly keen to see the scenery, but couldn't due to the condensation on the windows. However, later in the afternoon a steward came round with some magic wipes which cured the problem - just in time for darkness to fall.

The carriage end doors were banging back and forth for the whole trip.

There were a lot of fellow travellers equally unhappy "

They say they'll never do another steam trip, they were planning to take along some friends and relatives next time if this one had been a success, so that's a few more customers lost too.

So there you go, another great trip for the photters and window hangers, but a nail in the coffin for future profitability?

 

As this is a steam heat train does it not then make a sensible conclusion that the issues are about maintenance and repair/restoration of the coaching stock. Vintage Trains at Tyseley reports suggest get it right, WCR do not.

I don't like to see a lot of negativity but for me WCR have very much let down Railway Touring Company and Steam Dreams and more importantly their passengers many of whom will be lost forever. Rather than offering excuses that don't hold water or make sense it would surely be better to apologise and hold a hand up?

 

One of the problems with dining is the need for the saloon doors to be kept open so the catering staff can get through when carrying food. Not a lot you can do about that though sadly. Vestibules will always be freezing, even without window hangers.

 

I seem to remember being told that in the days of steam heat the train tail pipe needed to be left partially open for the steam heat to work properly.
I know that there are nearly always steam leaks along the train but the steam needs to pass right through the train.
Another reason could be that the steam heat valve on the engine is not turned on enough for whatever reason.

Cheers Dave

 

Steam heat just isn't as efficient or effective as electric heat..

If you want the comforts of a pendolino... You need a source of electric heating.

 

There's no mystery about steam heat. Its enemies are :

1. Maximum temperature. This is a function of the steam pressure, which is a function of the design of the system, probably limited by the hoses (think it runs about 50 psi from memory = 135 deg C), whereas electric elements can go up to red heat - look into your toaster).

2. Warm-up time - with the lower temperature it takes longer to feel the benefit (but a properly working system should at least feel very warm to the touch, like a household radiator - NOT my experience on the CME).

3. Water or air logging preventing the steam from filling the system. Traps are fitted to drain the condensate (and air?) and need to be checked and serviced regularly. Leaving the rear valve open at start-up would help purge out the air, but there should be no need to run like this if the system is working properly.

So as I see it the answers are :

Proper maintenance of system inc. drains and vents (doesn't necessarily equate to big ££££'s)
Use of a pre-heat boiler overnight (this does = ££££s)
Monitoring the stock when in use to identify cold areas, leaks etc.

However, I'm not sure what you do about switching from elec to steam, although the almost unbearable amount of heat put into the CME stock by the 86 did turn the whole thing into a giant storage heater which saw us through much of the steam leg). Maybe genny cars are the only answer and give up on steam heat altogether?

 

It may not be as efficient, but it can still work. I've been on cooked in a steam-heated heritage railway carriage. OK, they get the benefit of heating the train from both ends when they run round, but it can still work.

It also appears to be specific carriages which are cold, not the whole train. When a carriage in the middle of the train is colder than the rest, then they have a specific problem.

Richard
(working in a nice warm office)

 

Steam no.

Elec don't know - surprised our seat cushions didn't combust on the CME though - was like being sat on top of a 3 bar fire !

 

Yes. Working as designed steam heat should be perfectly effective, assuming you've got the stock up to temperature before departure. Stock was generally hooked up to stationary boilers overnight when is common use back then.

 

Cannot agree with you on this I'm afraid. Steam heating if maintained properly provides a much richer and softer heat [cosy] than electric heat which to me always seems harsh. If its working effectively steam heat can be warmer than electric train heat and can be regulated with the contols in the carriage. ETH always seems to be either on or off. You would be surprised how many people who complain about the cold simply do not turn the steam heat on. Also I've known the valve on the steam pipe between the loco and carriages not opened! How many cold trains do you travel in on a preserved railway? to me its very few.

 

Aren't MK2's (& Met-Cam Pullmans) pressure ventilated? With a heating unit under the coach heated by steam or electric with a blower forcing the warm air via ducting into the coach. I know Mk 1's have direct steam radiators or electric heaters.

 

On the CME ours were Mk1's, which is fine in theory, at least you can open the vent lights to either combat the electric sauna effect or listen to the loco and freeze yer nuts off!

 

Met Camm Pullmans, as built, had steam heating elements in heating ducts under the flow and electric fans to blow the heat into the saloon. When rebuilt in 1969, ETH elements were also fitted. BUT, you have to wait for the air in the ducts to heat before turning on the blowers!

Hence the reason that Opal on the NYMR was rebuilt with convential heating radiators in the saloon.

Mark 2 to Mark 2C coaches were built dual heat and are described as "pressure ventilated", so presumably have similar equipment (I think the ducts may be in the ceiling rather than under the floor).

Steven