60163 test runs

Not the fastest start to stop, but still a very, very fast start to stop average.

 

What's the all-time record for preserved steam in the UK? Was it 46229 in 1996 (97mph?)

 

:-#

 

Not for public disclosure, so please don't ask. This question crops up on a fairly regular basis but the forum is not the place for it, some folk could get into trouble even given the passage of time. And no, it wasn't.

Happy 2009 everyone.

 

Lets get this straight no one will get into trouble for mentioning these runs.

BR could and did sanction running faster than the norm in order to regain lost time. I was on one such run behind 46229 when it exceeded 60 mph by a good margin and for a long period, what was not sanctioned was running ahead of the timetable, ie if on time stick to 60 mph or later 75 mph.

The idiotic thing is basing max speeds on wheel diameter a class 5 is still a class 5 whether it's wheel diameter is 6' 0" or 6' 2" so say up to class 5 60 mph class 6 and above 75 mph.

What would be useful would be if 60 or 75 mph could be exceeded on favourable track when running late to regain time, if to time or early then max speed applies would help network rail out no end.

This is not advocating thrashing of engines just when the need arises let them run faster for the sake of the timetable.

This could be a good point for discussion but please don't insult our intelligence by saying we should not mention fast runs of course the management knew what was going on.

Dave

 

Quite agree. Ridiculous that 777 is a 75mph loco while a Black 5 is 60.
However, I gather moves are afoot to make a case for Black 5s to be 75 too.

Yes, quite true, many did know what was going on but, take it from me, when such matters came to the attention of the non-sympathetic members of higher management and certain board members, heads rolled and the spectre of a new steam ban reared its ugly head on at least one occasion!
We should also remember that a few footplate men who were involved in some of these epic runs are still in the railway industry and while examples of very high speed running are well known among us, I can think of a few instances where airing them in a public forum could cause some embarrassment so its probably best to be a bit circumspect!

 

On one high speed run I made in the 90s, management was on the footplate and sanctioned what happened and on another occasion the footplate inspector publicly apologised for not getting above XXmph so the achievements that day weren't exactly a secret. In today's blame culture however, I suspect it's wiser to keep one's mouth shut on such matters. There are still some people in charge who'd love to get steam off of the national network.

 

Spamcan81

Was that run down Whiteball where the member of management nearly filled his pants and called it off?

On the subject of class 5 locos and 75 mph I think the front end and boiler capacity warrants the keeping to 60 mph for timing purposes but to allow running to 75 mph to regain lost time would be good.

On the subject of 60163 and 90 mph this one makes me uneasy.

Time it for 90mph no way that's pushing things too far, timed at 75mph and allowed to run to 90 mph this would seem to be the sensible thing to do possibly with all the class 8 rated engines.

I would certainly like to see the Duke extended say approaching Shap at 80+ this should be well within the capacity of all of these engines and would make life easier on the faster routes.

Dave

 

I'd have thought that power classification has rather less to do with loco speed limits than wheel diameter. I accept that the present rules are over-simplified and rather arbitrary, but wheel diameter is at least part of equation, and exceptions are made on merit - e.g. 48151 is cleared for, I think, 50mph rather than 45. Are you suggesting that large-wheeled but relatively low-powered express passenger locos such as a Midland Compound or a King Arthur should be limited to less than 60 mph whilst an LMS 8F can run as fast as an A4 or a Duchess? Surely not?

What is foolish is expecting a class 5 loco, such as Sir Lamiel, to match a schedule suitable for an A4 or a King unless the load is reduced accordingly.

As for Black Fives being allowed to run at over 60 mph - Ian Riley has previously commented on this forum about the trade-offs involved. IIRC, his opinion (shared by several other Black 5 and Hall owners) is that cost of the extra ware and tare on the loco outweighs any commercial advantages of running trains a little faster.

But we are digressing from the subject of Tornado's test runs... ;-)

 

Good points.

What I was trying to establish was that it is not fair to expect a lower powered engine to perform on class 8 schedules, do the folks preparing the timings know the difference, if so fair comment.

A to extra wear and rear at 75 mph on say a black 5, my point was on easier grades where the engine is running freely.

I would maintain that such running would cause less wear and tear than being hammered uphill this is always supposing that the lubrication system is in good order and the right grade oil is used.

SVR engines have been noted as running at high speed in the 70's and 80's with no ill effects.

Talking to John Robinson reckoned things like overloading and priming do far more damage.

No I don't advocate high speeds for 8F's much sooner see them on a line like the Central Wales where speed is no issue and their low speed haulage capacity can be seen to good effect, having said that 48773 was timed at 72 mph on the SW main line rather naughty to do that I thought.

Cheers Dave

 

Re: 60103 @ York tonight

60103 is Flying Scotsman's BR number... must have been a typo.

 

..........................Splutters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I do hope if some of these quotes have any grains of truth in them that they stem from many years ago when the 60 limit was interpreted far more liberally.

 

..........................Splutters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote:11ixkfyu]
I'm presuming that this was on the main line and in the days when people took responsibility for their actions and only got a kicking when things went wrong. Halls, Manors, Flying Pigs and Black 5's (of the SVR fleet) are easily capable of 70+mph. Digressing just a tad, one of my Christmas presents was the collection of Railway roundabout films and it makes for very interesting viewing, not just for the locomotives but for the actions of enthusiasts and Joe Public. The rules haven't really changed since then but attitudes certainly have. There are wonderful scenes of people all over the track, drivers explaining the workings of locos to young children wandering around sheds and a wonderful shot of a loco running round a train with at least a dozen young kids hanging (yes hanging) on to the footplate! All this was against the 'rules' but accepted by everyone at all levels. In fact, in many places encouraged, as the children of the day were the railway employees of the future. To anyone under 45 (does that include you, Ian? :-k :-k ;-) ;-) ) , they will never know what they have missed! A series well worth watching, just for these memories, never mind the loco action!

 

Well only being 21, Steve, yes it's before my time............. \/

 

Yes OK Ian there was a series of hot boxes at one period traced back to someone changing the oil supply and telling no-one, but the period I referred to was way before then.

Dave

 

Looking at the advert in the new issue of Steam Railway it looks like the next issue of Steam Video will be a must buy for Tornado fans as it has coverage of the loaded test runs. My subscription copy hasn't arrived yet so I can't say what it's like but it should be good going by some of the footage that people have put on Youtube. I guess it will have the usual mistakes in the commentary #-o but SV does have some great footage.
I was hoping the PSOV lads would have coverage on the latest ML Volume but 60163 is not featured. I guess this is due to the Virgin stock she ran with as they are very particular about the coaching stock used when deciding to go out filming. I wonder if an official Tornado DVD will be released [-o< as the A1 group are asking for footage to be sent to them.

 

I found this yesterday whilst having a quick scan through youtube:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JmMvwoksG3E
This was an amazing run from No.9 and her crew in 1995 and might be the one you are talking about. I think there is footage of the descent down the other side of Whiteball on one of the PSOV ML series. Compare it with this run from 35028: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zq5aKL13RSk&feature=channel_page. I expect 60163 will break the records if she is allowed to run at 90mph.

 

That footage of 60009 gave me goose bumps watching it!


Is the rolling stock used for railtours cleared for 90mph?

 

I found this yesterday whilst having a quick scan through youtube:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JmMvwoksG3E
This was an amazing run from No.9 and her crew in 1995 and might be the one you are talking about. I think there is footage of the descent down the other side of Whiteball on one of the PSOV ML series. Compare it with this run from 35028: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zq5aKL13RSk&feature=channel_page. I expect 60163 will break the records if she is allowed to run at 90mph.[/quote:36wxsa7l]
No9 is averaging just on 70mph in the clip and 28 is just about 55mph in the other clip. That assumes, of course, that the video clock is correct! (Timed between identifiable points and distance measured using Memory Map digital mapping at 1:50K scale.)

Cheers
Alan
(Bored waiting for SWMBO to bring the car back from the garden centre.)