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60009

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by BillyReopening, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. BillyReopening

    BillyReopening Active Member

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    Doesn't seem to be much booked in for no.9 this year. Is she under maintenance or does anyone know if all is well?
     
  2. steam man

    steam man New Member

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    Heard at the lineside that John Cameron's wife wasn't too well, so I would think that steam would be the last thing on his mind .
     
  3. pete12000

    pete12000 Active Member

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    Is there any news on 60009 ?

    Scotrail-Steam Dreams have it planned in for Edinburgh-Tweedbank later in the year....
     
  4. 45517

    45517 New Member

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  5. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    According to the latest 'Steam Railway'...after fettling by Riley's, she could run for two more years on the main line. Following this she will be permanently retired in a purpose built museum in Fife. Looks like the K4 is going the same way too. John Cameron is quoted thus; "I'm 77 now and whilst I could put both the A4 and K4 through overhaul for another seven year ticket, nobody is going to write a seven year ticket for me,"
     
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  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Undertstandable sentiments. It would be great if some sort of custodianship, involving the A1 Trust, NELPG and NYMR perhaps, could be agreed for some operational future.
    The A4 has not enjoyed much success since the mechanical work a couple of years back.
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    John Cameron has the right to do as he pleases with his own locos but I really hope that somehow a working future can be found for them that doesn't involved him having to write a blank cheque.
     
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  8. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Completely agree Ian. No.9 was a Scottish Loco all her main working life and it's amazing that John Cameron has kept her going since he bought her from BR in the summer of 1966.

    If she is to be retired completely, it is fitting that she should do so in Scotland.
     
  9. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    How secure a future is a museum in Fife, based around just two locos, though? It's hardly going to be the Scottish rival to the NRM and I wonder just how viable it will be long term in an area that isn't particularly noted for tourism anyway.

    The NYMR would have jumped at the chance of putting the K4 through another 7 yr ticket but would obviously have wanted the use of the loco in return for its investment. No one can dispute that the engines are Mr. Cameron's to do as he pleases with, but any individual owner is at best a relay runner in custodianship terms, it would have been better to have acknowledged that with the K4, given its uniqueness, and passed it on to another owner willing to keep it in running order, just as he acquired it within preservation.
     
  10. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Apparently not. The same article quotes the NYMR General Manager as saying "The Great Marquess does not fit with our current plans, but as a principle, we'd never say never."
     
  11. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I think I can explain that - having spoken to the NYMR GM about the matter. Mr. Cameron was apparently willing to let the NYMR repair the boiler and run it till 60009 ran out of ticket, but the cost and timescale of the repairs was such that it made no economic sense. On the other hand, a full 7-year ticket would have allowed the investment to be recouped. If they weren't interested, why did they meet Mr. Cameron in the first place?
     
  12. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Don't ask me! David Wilcock wrote the article.;)
     
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  13. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Acknowledging the point, 60009 lived in a virtual museum in Fife at Lochty from 1966 to 1984 albeit there were sporadic forays on the main line. After this engineering expertise that could only be found south of the border was needed to keep it operational.
    If neither loco has a working future, a site of storage close to the owner's family makes sense. Unless the ownership changes or whoever is bequeathed them ultimately has a different plan we can only hope they are safely conserved.
    The publishing of the article may perhaps serve as the catalyst for some new discussions?
     
  14. Phil Noyce

    Phil Noyce New Member

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    Yes, my sentiments exactly.
    Whilst I agree Mr Cameron has every right to do with his locos what he wants and I fully understand his reasons for making this decision, it would be a shame to see two fine locos (and in the case of the K4, unique) stuffed and mounted. One can only hope a way can be found to keep 60009 running and to overhaul 61994 back to working order. There seems to be a shortage of main line registered engines available at the moment and the movement can't afford to lose 60009 or 61994.
    I'm sure that if it eventually turns out that these locos futures are to be on static display, Mr Cameron will make sure they are safely conserved in the right manner. Although, having said that, 61994 does appear to be somewhat unloved at the present time....
     
  15. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    I think John Cameron's problem is one that was faced by the late Peter Beet, is now being faced by his son Chris and will be the subject of much discussion in the future.

    Like it or not, the recent restoration of 4472 / 60103 highlighted the undeniable fact that steam locomotive overhauls are both costly and time-consuming hence John Cameron appreciating that his problem is a "lack of time". In his case he is now facing the dilemma faced by Peter Beet; does one overhaul knowing that it needs to run on the main line to recoup the cost plus contribute to the next overhaul or place it in a museum where it still costs money to maintain its appearance. The question has recently been highlighted by the news that 6201, despite having a recent overhaul, now has a boiler problem that will cost much time and money to fix - during a period when its main line ticket is ticking away.

    That question has been answered in part by recent overhauls where owners have decided that main line running is too expensive and accept being restricted to heritage line running where the wear and tear is greater and the finances have to be juggled with each hire contract that is negotiated.

    Whilst thanking John Cameron for his contribution to main line running and commiserating on the situation that has forced his hand on future operations I think this year will be one when other locomotive owners will need to take note of David Smith's oft quoted remark regarding future main line steam operations that it will happen only as long as owners are prepared to dig - and dig deeply - into their pockets. More crucially is that locomotive owners / owning groups will need to re-assess their funding and finances in order to see if they can afford to continue main line operations - or even heritage line operations !
     
  16. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    @Fred Kerr

    I suspect two big factors are in play . You have mentioned the sheer cost of overhauling and then maintaining an engine to main line standard which in the nicest sense main line revenues just don't cover . The second thing is manpower . Support Crews are a unique group of people but the time and commitment involved just don't appeal to the majority

    I would suggest that that movement should prepare itself that many main line locomotives in the care of small groups will in time cease main line running

    To build on this I can foresee a time when we have only IoS VT and WCRC , with few routes , but more regular operation
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'll highlight that particular bit - are you sure that mainline running is required to recoup the cost? I can imagine that for class 7/8 locos, opportunities for cost-effective regular work on heritage lines are probably limited. But for class 5-ish locos, I suspect there are numerous heritage lines that could give them a much more steady income, making up for reduced fees with a greater number of days in traffic. You'd have a fixed base, no need to install costly electronics, and the potential of extended periods in steam, so reduced boiler cycles.

    I don't think either mode of operation is recipe for a "get rich quick" scheme - but I wouldn't assume that mainline running is inherently the only way to recoup costs, especially for the locos at the smaller end of the market. It actually looks much riskier to me - a smaller number of days to recover costs; harder running (albeit more sustained rather than stop-start); more boiler cycles; support crew spread thin etc. Plus on a heritage line, it is easier to arrange a long-term hire contract giving greater security of income, whereas with mainline running, you are competing rather more from job to job, unless you can arrange to cover all the duties of a "repeat itinery" type operation.

    Agreed, and that may well be better for the mainline steam movement as a whole - IMHO.

    Tom
     
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  18. Anthony Wiaczek

    Anthony Wiaczek New Member

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    I'd be very interested as the where in Fife this museum would be located, considering 60009 is stabled in Thornton, only 5 miles from Fife Heritage Railway.
     
  19. 60017

    60017 Part of the furniture Friend

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    According to the SR article, Mr C 'intends to build a museum on his 400 acre sheep farm as a legacy of his involvement in post-1968 steam operations.'
     
  20. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    It is the K4 I feel more strongly about. Mr. Cameron obviously has a strong attachment to number 9, having owned it for so long, and I can understand his wish for the equivalent of a Viking funeral, but when he bought the K4 there were other interested parties who would have been happy to overhaul it and keep it running, albeit not necessarily on the main line. I believe that is still the case and I believe a lot more people would derive pleasure from seeing it running, wherever that may be, than from seeing it in a museum. Its is very sad.
     

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