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13065/42765 'Crab'

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by guard_jamie, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    I will be looking forward to seeing 42765 returning to steam this year, in it's original 13065 guise. There is a picture of its completed tender in the 2nd to most recent Steam Railway.

    Unfortunately from what I can see the numerals used for the tender are incorrect for the livery - they are smaller and 'thicker' than that which was originally carried, as can be seen on the NRM's just outshopped Crab 13000 (42700) - a lovely picture of which is in the latest SR. The livery is practically a facsimile of late Midland style, and as such should use MR numerals, not the LMS numerals that seem to have been applied.

    Am I being a bit nit-picking?
     
  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I thought it looked a bit odd but who am I to criticise!
     
  3. williamfj2

    williamfj2 Member

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    As long as she's running and not in BR black then I'm happy!
     
  4. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

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    Any plans to line the ELR and NRM examples up together? I think they'd look very nice together in a depot scene!

    Sadly I'm not sure the potential photocharter could pay to move 13000 to Bury & back!
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't know....you wait the best part of 80 years to see a red crab then two come along at once!
     
  6. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Actually how about taking both Crabs to the Severn Valley and running it with the LMS Set for a photo charter ? (I assume 13000 is towable).
    If they swapped tenders theirs always the illusion of both examples being seen as operational.
     
  7. irwellsteam

    irwellsteam Member

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    Actually, 13065 carried a unique variation of the livery. I don't know the full extent of differences but I assume the current job is accurate because the ELR and NRM worked very closely in finding the correct livery for both their engines.

    Also, I think some differences you see may just be down to painter variation. But it is a faithful representation of its original paintjob, as seen:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ab,_13065_(CJ_Allen,_Steel_Highway,_1928).jpg
     
  8. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Looking at the picture of 13065 you've attached the livery does not seem any different from the other Maroon Crabs - would you be able to find out what constituted the 'unique variation'?

    I haven't got the relevant SR to hand at the moment but comparing the recently outshopped tender to the aforementioned picture the numerals still seem too small, to me. All the pictures of Maroon Crabs in 'The Power of the LMS Moguls (not that there are that many) show the larger Midland style lettering on the tender, and the picture you've uploaded seems similar, if possibly a little smaller, but still larger than that which has been applied.

    Nevertheless it will be good to see it out and about, I would love to see it visit the SVR (on which I volunteer) for an LMS mogul gala!
    Like the earlier poster I agree that it will be a refreshing change from BR black - a very fetching livery but rather done to death at the moment.
     
  9. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    Still doesn't change the fact that it's a horrendous looking thing. Much prefer Stanier's version...
     
  10. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Strangely enough I think that their slightly quirky yet powerful look makes for quite a good looking engine. To me the Stanier version is just a slight variation on a very standard look.
     
  11. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    I don't like the smokebox, particularly the door. I find Royal Scots pre-rebuild (rebuilt Royal Scots are the best looking express passenger engine in the country) and Patriots pretty repulsive for the same reason. The Stanier boiler is much more handsome IMO.

    42968 has a certain charm to it, like a miniature Black 5.
     
  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I suppose really that I should agree, but can't. The Horwich Crab was never going to win a beauty contest, but it wasn't intended to. The saying is, 'handsome is as handsome does,' and from that point of view these were very handsome engines indeed, well liked by everyone for their sheer ability to do the job.

    These engines deserve their place in history and preservation; they earned it. They were the first new design of engine for the LMS (albeit with a heavy L&Y influence) and were amongst the best - possibly THE best - of the pre-Stanier engines for that railway.

    Personally, I'm not keen on red for these engines: fundamentally the were always black, despite the early livery, but will certainly agree to a move away from yet another BR black loco. I too would like to see one or both of them at the SVR to join up with 2968 (which is in BR black!). We can but hope!
     
  13. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    What never gets acknowledged is the input the ex-Caledonian Railway had on these engines. There was already a design on the board for a 2-6-0 at the time of the grouping and a lot of the genesis of the Crabs is owed to the CR (ie: borrowed ideas). I've read this in quite a few books (which I may not have now) but I'm sure it's mentioned in Nock's history of the CR.
     
  14. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    The Caledonian influence is mentioned in the RCTS book The Hughes and Stanier 2-6-0s.
     
  15. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    I haven't got that but its reassuring that I wasn't making it up. Does it state how much input they had? I'm sure Nock was quite insistent that the CR designers had a large hand in LMS policy but I'll have to go home and see if I've still got that book, it may have been disposed of during my move from Stirling to Worcester last summer.
     
  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Apart from the wheel arrangement, it isn't easy to say what Cally features went forward. The RCTS book gives two outside cylinders 21" x 28", 5'6" coupled wheels, and a 180 psi boiler (this last was pure George Hughes anyway) giving a TE of 28,624lbs. It would have used short travel valve gear. The problems were weight (axle loading over 20 tons) and loading gauge, especially width over the cylinders. The book notes that some features of the ex-Highland River Class 4-6-0s were apparent.

    In appearance, the Crabs were almost entirely L&Y, much coming from the rebuilt Dreadnought 4-6-0s. But certainly Hughes considered the Cally design, and it's reasonable that he borrowed some features from it.
     
  17. Mighty Mogul

    Mighty Mogul Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking forward to seeing 13065 in red livery - will be a refreshing change. There may be the chance to see 42968 and 13065 together in matching liveries as IIRC 42968 is due to wear early LMS livery with No. 13268 during its next ticket...

    Judging the aesthetics of loco design from a current standpoint (in 2011) is interesting. Were the locos regarded as 'ugly' when new, or simply as radical and modern?
     
  18. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    It won't be quite a matching livery though - the Stanier Moguls were outshopped from the start in black, number on the cabside, LMS on the tender. I can't remember whether they were lined or not at the start. Certainly they never carried maroon. Now if 13065 was later in its ticket painted into LMS lined black (in my opinion their most fetching livery) as 2765, then we would be onto something!

    As we're talking about Crabs does anyone know anything about 42859? I saw some pictures of it from a few years ago and it was in a desperately sorry state. The owner did not seem to be looking after it as well as he might, though I may be being unfair in that.
     
  19. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    They were lined out, and never carried maroon.
     
  20. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    That'll be the one on Binbrook Farm along with a Merchant Navy.
     

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